CONCRETE TIES

Are concrete ties better than wood for both passenger and freight?

gprimr1 wrote:Are concrete ties better than wood for both passenger and freight?

Both types have there ups and downs. Wood ties have amax age of 20-50 years or so compared to concrete ties which are suposed to be long lasting.

good points/bad points of Wood Ties:
Wood ties like anything have to be chemical treated. There cheap but don't last forever pending on how much traffic runs on the rails in which they suport. A main line might need them replaced every 10 years on a branch line it could be longer than that. I've seen some with date nails going back to 1917 still in use and in great shape both on branch lines and in some yards.

Concrete ties are nice to but as it turns out there not holding up to the pounding of Ameraican railroads with weaght tonnages growing every year. In Europe you'll find concrete ties being used every where as there trains are lighter and in most cases like Great Britian, and Ireland they have almost no trees or forests at all.

Here in the U.S. Concrete ties seem to be more prefered on commuter lines for the simple reason of being ageless and not needing replacement every few years. Some fraght roads use concrete ties on sharp curves to help releve the stress of heavey cars as they don't bend and flex like wood ties do.

scharnhorst wrote:

gprimr1 wrote:Are concrete ties better than wood for both passenger and freight?

Both types have there ups and downs. Wood ties have amax age of 20-50 years or so compared to concrete ties which are suposed to be long lasting.

good points/bad points of Wood Ties:
Wood ties like anything have to be chemical treated. There cheap but don't last forever pending on how much traffic runs on the rails in which they suport. A main line might need them replaced every 10 years on a branch line it could be longer than that. I've seen some with date nails going back to 1917 still in use and in great shape both on branch lines and in some yards.

Concrete ties are nice to but as it turns out there not holding up to the pounding of Ameraican railroads with weaght tonnages growing every year. In Europe you'll find concrete ties being used every where as there trains are lighter and in most cases like Great Britian, and Ireland they have almost no trees or forests at all.

Here in the U.S. Concrete ties seem to be more prefered on commuter lines for the simple reason of being ageless and not needing replacement every few years. Some fraght roads use concrete ties on sharp curves to help releve the stress of heavey cars as they don't bend and flex like wood ties do.

Concrete ties might be preferred by the commuter railroads and I can see
why but both Metro-North and the Long Island got some concrete ties and
installed them only to find problems in a rather short period of time and
many of them had to be replaced. No savings here.
On the other hand, they seem to be working fairly well here in Florida on
the Florida East Coast which is practically 100 per cent concrete ties on
their main line.
I am not a track expert, far from it, but I seem to think that less than
ideal drainage may well shorten the lives of concrete ties just like it does
with wood ties.
Noel Weaver

I do remember seeing and even getting photos of Long Island Gondolas about a year or two ago full of Concrete ties. Even got to see prefab panel track stretched across 2 89ft TTX Flats a few times too.

I would wonder if the reason why Concrete ties being used on the FEC might have something to do with moisture? being that most of the state is under water.

Damaging Freeze & Thaw, is not an issue in Florida (unless U R an Orange ).

Composites & Plastics: The Forgotten Tie Material
For some reason, composite ties (often made of recycled material) seem rarely used - when they are, they seem to receive high praise and seem to take the pounding like wood ties while being more imprevious to the elements like concrete ties - and at prices not much higher than wood ties.
And yet, composite ties, even having been available for awhile now, seem NOT to be turning the MOW world on it's ear.

scharnhorst wrote:Wood ties like anything have to be chemical treated

Does anyone know what chemical(s) they use to treat wooden ties?

Whatever it is, it has a very unique smell, especially on hot summer days. By the walkway in front of my house I always used to smell that same fragrance(or odor) as when I wait on the platform next to the tracks. Come to find out there are some wooden blocks under a bush by the walkway, though they're probably not old railroad ties, they're definetly coated or treated with the same chemical, hence the same smell.

rcervel wrote:

scharnhorst wrote:Wood ties like anything have to be chemical treated

Does anyone know what chemical(s) they use to treat wooden ties?

Whatever it is, it has a very unique smell, especially on hot summer days. By the walkway in front of my house I always used to smell that same fragrance(or odor) as when I wait on the platform next to the tracks. Come to find out there are some wooden blocks under a bush by the walkway, though they're probably not old railroad ties, they're definetly coated or treated with the same chemical, hence the same smell.

Many Moons ago they used creosote

Noel Weaver wrote:
Concrete ties might be preferred by the commuter railroads and I can see
why but both Metro-North and the Long Island got some concrete ties and
installed them only to find problems in a rather short period of time and
many of them had to be replaced. No savings here.
On the other hand, they seem to be working fairly well here in Florida on
the Florida East Coast which is practically 100 per cent concrete ties on
their main line.
I am not a track expert, far from it, but I seem to think that less than
ideal drainage may well shorten the lives of concrete ties just like it does
with wood ties.
Noel Weaver

I'm not a track expert either; but I got into the railroad biz through Sperry. Up on the old Great Northern line, from Whitefish to Spokane, they've laid hundreds of miles of concrete ties.

At the time I was testing, 1997, the BN people were delighted with the ties. They held gauge; they didn't decompose; they allowed stress/temperature shifting.

The problem - and the BN had decided to bite the bullet on this - was that the rail itself needed replacing every 4-5 years. Here's why:

On conventional wooden ties, there's a lot of "give" as axles roll over the rail. Ties compress and the rail dips a few inches depending on axle load.

Concrete has none of that give. The "web" of the rail has to take the brunt of impact, of sudden loading and unloading. It tends to chrystalize the metal.

BN, in its early post-merger years, accepted the cost. My current employer, CSX, clearly does NOT and has no interest in concrete crossties. It's a matter of priority.

FWIW, concrete would probably be the ideal material for light-heavy passenger-rail equipment, because of the much-lighter axle loading than freight equipment.

ExEMDLOCOTester wrote:

rcervel wrote:

scharnhorst wrote:Wood ties like anything have to be chemical treated

Does anyone know what chemical(s) they use to treat wooden ties?

Whatever it is, it has a very unique smell, especially on hot summer days. By the walkway in front of my house I always used to smell that same fragrance(or odor) as when I wait on the platform next to the tracks. Come to find out there are some wooden blocks under a bush by the walkway, though they're probably not old railroad ties, they're definetly coated or treated with the same chemical, hence the same smell.

Many Moons ago they used creosote

From what I was told by some of the older MOW guys long sents retired told me that Creosote, Arsenic, Formaldehyde, and Dioxian (a Black Oil Like S*** thats vary toxic) were the top 4 used to preservation of ties. I know of being used to treat ties but that was years ago.
Today/preseant time railroad ties are treated in a chemical called CCS then diped in Oil to help expand there life..

ExEMDLOCOTester wrote:Damaging Freeze & Thaw, is not an issue in Florida (unless U R an Orange ).

What I meant was with Florida being surrounded on 3 sides by water plus all the swamp land the air would be moist and humid making wood ties rot out faster giving reason for the FEC to use Concrete ties.

Althow heres an odd one for ya'll sents were talking about Railroad Ties. Back in my Sperry Days while in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada on a job. I took a side tip one weekend to go and visit Canfor (Canadian Forest Products) As they have a railroad of there own. They use Wood ties but an intresting thing that I learned while chating with one of there MOW Guys was that every 3ed Railroad Tie is a Steel Tie whch is welded to the bottom of the rail this is suposed to help in preventing the rail from spreading out to the sides when under a load.

What is the story on concrete ties. NJT and others are placeing them as I write but at leasat Amtrak and Metro North are putting out slow orders and replacing many. I know the ties are being placed virtually everywhere, but are the same problems being reported? The problems as I have heard are because of water damage and poor drainage. But could this also be because of more acid rain in the east? Is there a real problem with concrete or just certain locations?

henry6 wrote:What is the story on concrete ties. NJT and others are placeing them as I write but at leasat Amtrak and Metro North are putting out slow orders and replacing many. I know the ties are being placed virtually everywhere, but are the same problems being reported? The problems as I have heard are because of water damage and poor drainage. But could this also be because of more acid rain in the east? Is there a real problem with concrete or just certain locations?

Concrete ties are still favored by most railroads. All the class 1's are installing them on most of the track upgrades. You need less per mile then wood and they last almost twice as long. They require virtually no upkeep and hold gauge better then wood. They are also not considered a hazardous waste once they are disposed of. The only downside to them vs wood is the fact they do not survive derailments. However, considering they hold gauge so much better, they lessen the chance for derailments and that is why most railroads are willing to deal with that one flaw.

There were alot of issues with concrete ties produced by a company known as San Vel. They are since out of business but they had a big issue with flawed ties and even had some lawsuits. Amtrak, Metro North and NJT all bought ties from them years ago.

Drainage issues are the number one issue for all types of ties, not just concrete. Not sure of the specifics on the issues you are talking about, but there may be more to the story.

Concrete ties may be much better...but I do sure love the smell of the wood ties on a hot summer day.

LOL

Concrete ties are still favored by most railroads. All the class 1's are installing them on most of the track upgrades. You need less per mile then wood and they last almost twice as long. They require virtually no upkeep and hold gauge better then wood. They are also not considered a hazardous waste once they are disposed of. The only downside to them vs wood is the fact they do not survive derailments. However, considering they hold gauge so much better, they lessen the chance for derailments and that is why most railroads are willing to deal with that one flaw.

There were alot of issues with concrete ties produced by a company known as San Vel. They are since out of business but they had a big issue with flawed ties and even had some lawsuits. Amtrak, Metro North and NJT all bought ties from them years ago.

Drainage issues are the number one issue for all types of ties, not just concrete. Not sure of the specifics on the issues you are talking about, but there may be more to the story.[/quote]

From what I understand MNRR has had problems of badly detriorated ties causing a the placement of speed restrictions from 70 down to 60 in some areas. Amtrak is redoing a lot of concrete ties across NJ. NJT has used concrete a lot and is currently placing them between Denville and Montclair St. University (MSU) Station on the Montclair-Boonton Line.

So, could acid rain or other pollutants in water and air in such urban areas in the east be a contributing factor? Or is it just poorly drained track and ROW structures be the culprit. I know CP did concrete in the Kamloops Tunnels I think about 20 or more years ago and I don't believe I have heard any complaints or problems.

What about concrete ties used near crossings, would road salt affect them?