Clinton Engine House

The other day I was fooling around with the Mass. tax maps. This came about because of some other discussions here. I couldn’t find where it could have been. My next quest was on the UNH historical topo maps. I couldn’t find it. Where was it?

Hi Engineer Spike
Clinton engine house, location, I cropped two of the Central Mass valuation maps that Scott Whitney produced, it looks like the CM engine house was located either off of South Meadow st or Holden st. see Attached.
My friend Arthur told me you would have a hard time finding the location of the engine house, because it is so build up over the years.

B&M ETT No. 23, April 25, 1937, p. 31, lists Clinton Engine House as 17.46 miles from Worcester and Clinton itself as 16.76.

Hi Engineer Spike
I was talking to a friend of mine, and asking him about the location of the Central Mass engine house.
Well, I got lucky he is a fan of the Central Mass, and he did know the location, of the engine house.
The former location of the Clinton Engine house is now the location of Clinton Middle School.

Pat Fahey-
Concerning the Clinton engine house, if you check the Scott Whitney track plan disc for the WN&P, just past the W17 designation at the top of the page, you'll see a sketch indicating an engine house, and a bit further down the page appear both the words "engine house" and a trailing-point turnout on the WB main.
As far as a Central Mass. Clinton engine house, the particular routing through what is now school property was a rerouting as a result of the Wachusett Reservoir construction. The portion of the Whitney track plan you posted shows "Old Bldg. #147" on the leg to East Switch, and it's doubtful that the B&M would have built another engine house after that rerouting given that there was a facility 2.5+ miles away in Clinton on the WNP. There had been a turntable at Oakdale during the pre-reservoir routing, but with the rerouting, the station was relocated and the turntable removed, this per the B&MRRHS book The Central Mass.

HI Jaymac
Maybe I should have worded my reply a little differently, what I should have said, was this.
The former location of the Central Mass Clinton engine house is now located on the back of the school grounds, of Clinton Middle School. And I also have both books of the Central Mass, also. the original, and revised edition
You said the school is located 2.5 miles away, yes maybe by car, but if you go in a straight line from the former mainline of the Mass Central, it is closer than what you are saying.
if you notice on one of the attachments, look just how close the school grounds, are to the right of way of the Central Mass, which I marked in yellow.
On the other USGS map of Clinton, Mass from 1965 you will notice that the school, has not been built yet, note the right of way, this right of way, would become the back of the school property.
So the school according to both maps are sitting on the location of the former engine house location.

Pat Fahey-
The aerial photo and the USGS map you posted do show the old rerouting from Reservoir Switch to Clinton Junction -- on the left -- and East Switch. A trip to Google Earth and selection of the oldest view available -- NASA b&w -- will show the ghosts of the ROWs.
What I have a lingering question about is the presence of an engine house at that location. The B&MRRHS hasn't yet put its collection of valuation charts on line, but there are other online Society resources that make the presence of an engine house less than certain.
Under "ENGINE HOUSE AND TURNTABLE NOTES" appear no mentions of anything for the Central Mass., but the entries seem less than all-inclusive.
Under the heading "Turntables -- All Divisions" is a 1918 listing updated through 1925 from the Office of the Chief Engineer. Under "Southern Division - So." appear listings for Wayland -- 50' and installed in 1897 -- and Ware -- a wye. The listings for the WN&P show a wye at Oakdale and a 65' and pre-Reservoir 1886 turntable in Clinton. For small-scale operations -- switching and low-traffic outlying commuter layovers, locating an engine house at or even within a wye was common B&M practice. The B&MRRHS photo archive shows such an arrangement for Lexington Branch commuter operations at Bedford, Mass. Curiously, the 1918/1925 listing does not show Reservoir Switch, Clinton Junction, and East Switch as a wye, even though it physically was. Given the topography, if there had been an engine house, the area by Reservoir Switch would seem favorable, but the Whitney CD shows a section house there, perhaps repurposed.
The 2008 reissue of The Central Mass. provides no positive evidence, either. There are no photos of an engine house for the Central Mass. by Reservoir Switch, although the WN&P engine house is shown on p. 60. The chapter describing a fictional trip to Northampton is filled with details about going through the tunnel and swinging left at Reservoir Switch to Clinton Junction, an engine house not in those details. P. 77, however, mentions a "boarded up and dilapidated one-stall engine house" at Oakdale. That facility might have been out of frame, but does not appear in the photos on pp.35 and 36 or on the map on p. 36.
When the valuation charts do go online, hopefully a final determination can be reached.

Hi Jaymac
I misunderstood your question on WHY the B&M would build another engine house, only 2.5 miles from the WN&P in Clinton, Mass. Well according to the B&M timetables then, the end of the line, was in Clinton, Mass. Even tho the Central Mass did end at Northhampton, Mass.
According to the book The Rail Lines of Southern New England, BY Ronald, Dale Karr, the Boston to Northhampton though passenger trains were reduced from three to two round trips in the 1920s. But by 1932 all passenger trains west of Clinton to Northhampton ceased, along with the freight service.
So that is why the engine house and turntable were needed in Clinton when the relocation of the mainline through the Clinton tunnel and viaduct was built.
What was the railroad to do, Deadhead equipment out to Clinton, from Boston, for the morning trains. So that is the reason WHY the engine house and turntable were built at the time, of the relocation of the railroad. So it did not have to Deadhead equipment, it was easier to have the equipment on-site.
Also, where was the closest turntable on the WN&P, off the Central Mass???? My guess would be Ayer, Mass, or Worcester, Mass. The turntables at these locations were 70 feet long, yes also they could turn the train on the WN&P
( Y) in Clinton, but that would have been a time-consuming operation.
There was also a (Y) at Oakdale, Mass also. But that would have been a 6-mile backup move to Clinton?
So I hope this answers your question, to WHY the B&M built the engine-house and turntable at Clinton, at the time of the relocation of the railroad, because it made sense.

Pat-
The engine house shown on p. 60 of The Central Mass. is the WN&P engine house that I mentioned earlier as being at W17.46. Its turntable -- per the 1918-1925 Office of the Chief Engineer listing -- dated to 1886, substantially predating the construction of the reservoir and the rerouting. Referring again to the photo on p. 60, the 2-6-0s, coaches, and gas electric were all part of the commuter equipment laying over for Boston service, service that left on and returned by mileage on the WN&P from East Switch to Clinton and even Lancaster.

Hi Jaymac
I do hope you are enjoying this debate on the Central Mass, I am, OKl lets go to the Central Mass book again, on page 32 the last paragraph reads A small terminal with an engine house and turntable was built just north of town. But not until the new relocation took place on the Central Mass. The WN&P never had a engine terminal at Clinton, period.
So this new terminal was not part of the WN&P, even tho, the B&M pits and turntable do show it's as part of the WN&P, off the mainline.
The B&M had to catalog the railroad, in some way, for there records, so in a sense, and I sort of agree with you, that the Central Mass, was only part of the WN&P, on paper, but only because of the connection, at Clinton jct,thats all.
The WN&P even tho part of the B&M, had to show its connection, because it was part of the railroad.
The terminal in Clinton, built new for the Central Mass, was NOT a WN&P terminal, here I have to disagree with you.
So how could the WN&P use the terminal that wasn't there, until it was built, by the railroad, when the new location took place, on the Central Mass.at Clinton junction????
Also, the WN&P could not get into Clinton, until the new switches connected with the Central Mass At Clinton, jct. The WN&P had no reason to go to Clinton When the line was built the WN&P, the trains were Worcester to Ayer trains and Nashua, NH nothing when to Clinton. The WN&P only has the connection, so trains of the Central Mass could run on the short connection of the WN&P, to continue there route to Northhampton, Mass, that all.
Also my emplyee timetable for Sept of 1950, the Central Mass, came under the Terminal, and Fitchburg divisions of the B&M, Not the WN&P.
So Jaymac, I agree with you on some things, so I will wait on your next reply, take care, Pat.

Pat-
I'd strongly suggest you read the lines above what you referenced on P. 32 of The Central Mass. From East Switch north/east into Clinton and from Clinton Jct. south/west into Oakdale, the post-relocation Central ran on WN&P Division tracks -- as a guest and not a host.
The authors probably didn't then have access to the listing from the Office of the Chief Engineer, so may not have known about the 1886 turntable at W17.46, "just north of town", "town" being Clinton and Clinton being W16.7. Disagree with me all you like about it not being a WN&P facility, but I'll side with the Office of the Chief Engineer. Given all the mill activity in Clinton, there would have been a need for at least one Clinton-based switcher with a service facility. Could an older wooden engine house have burned down and a new one constructed in 1903? Absolutely.
The WN&P -- through its Worcester & Nashua ancestor -- reached from Worcester through Clinton to Ayer in 1846, before the Mass. Central/Central Mass. was even a paper railroad. 1903 was when the Central Mass. commuter service from Clinton -- actually Lancaster -- started, so even as a guest, the Central Mass. service was a late arrival to Clinton.
The Central Mass. came into the B&M with the B&M's acquisition of the Boston & Lowell, B&L lines being assigned to the Southern Division. Sometimes, railroads change with glacial speed, so it took time for a more reasonable reassignment to the Fitchburg Division.

Pat-
I'd strongly suggest you read the lines above what you referenced on P. 32 of The Central Mass. From East Switch north/east into Clinton and from Clinton Jct. south/west into Oakdale, the post-relocation Central Mass. ran on WN&P Division tracks -- as a guest and not a host.
The authors possibly didn't then have access to the listing from the Office of the Chief Engineer, so may not have known about the 1886 turntable at W17.46, "just north of town", "town" being Clinton and Clinton being W16.7. Disagree with me all you like about it not being a WN&P facility, but I'll side with the Office of the Chief Engineer. Given all the mill activity in Clinton then, there would have been a need for at least one Clinton-based switcher with a service facility. Could an older wooden engine house have burned down with a new one constructed in 1903? Absolutely.
The WN&P -- through its Worcester & Nashua ancestor -- reached from Worcester through Clinton to Ayer -- then Groton Junction -- in 1846, before the Mass. Central/Central Mass. was even a paper railroad. 1903 was when the Central Mass. commuter service from Clinton -- actually Lancaster -- started, so even as a guest, the Central Mass. service was a late arrival to Clinton.
The Central Mass. came into the B&M with the B&M's acquisition of the Boston & Lowell, B&L lines being assigned to the Southern Division. There are times that railroads change with glacial speed, so it took some time for a more reasonable reassignment to the Fitchburg Division.

Hi Jaymac
Isn't this interesting, I just looked at what you asked, and the only reason WHY the Central Mass was using the WN&P tracks, was only because of the realignment at Oakdale. Now you keep on saying there was a turntable and engine house in Clinton before the Central Mass entered the town.
What do have to back this up, besides the information you keep on talking about?, dealing with the turntable?
Have you checked with the Clinton Historical Society, for photos, or town map, showing the WN&P in town, How about newspaper reports showing which railroad arrived in town first, The Central Mass, or the WN&P?
Now to get back to the realignment in Oakdale, yes they did share the track for only a short distance, between Oakdale and Sterling junction.
As I said, the WN&P did not come into Clinton, they ran passed Clinton to Ayer, no WN&P trains stopped at Clinton or Clinton Jct. Please show me a timetable, either employee or public showing WN&P trains stopping in Clinton, Also as I said before, show me a photo, or a drawing with the turntable in Clinton, before the Central Mass??
Have you talked with anyone from the B&M historical society, on the same subject?
Jaymac, again I will have to disagree with you, until you can show me proof, of the turntable, timetables, employee or public, of WN&P trains stopping at Clinton junction, before the realignment, of the Central Mass. see ya, Pat.

Pat-
No matter how many times the corporate and/or divisional identifications may have changed since 1846, the route between Worcester and Ayer has run through and -- until the few decades -- provided service to Clinton.
You stated you have a Sept. 1950 ETT. Check the Portland Division section for Worcester, and you will see service -- in addition to the Central Mass. -- for Clinton.
No, I don't have the other encyclopedic documentation you ask for, so having nothing further to add, I won't.

Hi Jaymac
I did find what you asked in my 1950's employee timetable, and yes trains did run out of Worcester, on the Central Mass to Ayer to Lowell Jct. So I do agree with you on that, But we were talking about WN&P and Clinton in general.
Let's get back to the WN&P turntable, again where was it located? And no photos of it, in operation, on the WN&P.
Also, let's not forget at one time Clinton had 4 stations, The present station, its original station, where the New Haven, line when to Leominster and the WN&P when to Portland, Maine.
The third station was located on the Central Mass before the location called South Clinton,
the fourth station, of course, was Clinton junction, located on the Central Mass.
But since you can't come up with a timetable, except for what you did post. so than just what station did exist on the WN&P back in the 1870s?
There was no Clinton Junction on the WN&P at that time, There was no realignment of the Central Mass, going on.
Could the turntable that you keep on referring to could have been located on or near, the original location of the Clinton Station, via the NH, and WN&P?
Jaymac since you said you don't have excess to some information, that is fine, so I will give you what I found on the computer, and in my records.
The Two ( 2) timetables came out of a Reprint Travelers Offical Guide June 1893. I cropped the page down after I scanned it. I know that not that clear, so you will have to deal with it, You will notice no Clinton Jct, Hmm so no turntable could be located there?
I also found photos of Clinton, on the net, before Clinton Junction on the Central Mass, You got the WN&P coming throught Clinton, could the other line, be the New Haven?