Carmel Junction

Well, it appears that the ex-RDG mainline signal project is progressing well. I noticed today that a new signal mast has been erected for the Warminster branch inbound at Carmel. It is a NYC style mast with two heads on each of two top masts, and is considerably taller than the current three aspect signal that has been there as long as I can remember. This leads me to believe that the R2 branch will also be reverse signalled up to Lynn. Despite the funding woes, it's nice to see something moving forward.

There are currently no plans to upgrade the Warminster line signal system. After the Fox Chase line gets done this summer, and Wayne to Glenside gets upgraded in the fall, the next plan is to upgrade from Carmel to Dale (about 3 years away)

I would then assume that the signals are being installed for the future or for the occasional reverse move on the outbound Warminster track. Still neat to see a shiny new signal mast standing there.

I would then assume that the signals are being installed for the future or for the occasional reverse move on the outbound Warminster track. Still neat to see a shiny new signal mast standing there.

NO! It is not neat! SEPTA has been wonderful at preserving old Reading RR signals and the fact that this horrible project is moving forward means that one of the last examples of this sort of signaling system will be gone forever. What does SEPTA need new signals for anyway? In 3 months they won't have money to run trains yet here they are rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship.

Mike,

I'm all with you regarding preservation. The reason I thought it was neat was that I saw it as a small piece of reassurance that trains WILL be running. All the vintage signals in the world won't do any good if they have nothing to protect.

BTW, all new signal upgrades on SEPTA are going to be cab signalled without waysides except for interlockings and CP points.

I believe the speed limit will be 70 on the R5 to at least Lansdale as well as a whole new Dale interlocking.

Jersey_Mike wrote:NO! It is not neat! SEPTA has been wonderful at preserving old Reading RR signals and the fact that this horrible project is moving forward means that one of the last examples of this sort of signaling system will be gone forever. What does SEPTA need new signals for anyway? In 3 months they won't have money to run trains yet here they are rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship.

Railfans may care that an old RDG signal is still standing... the people who pay for the system do not. If you wish to sponsor SEPTA to maintain a relic when the rest of the world is moving on to new technology, go for it... I will go on applauding any new embracing of technology that SEPTA dares implement.

Hate to break it to you (and others who've made similar arguments in other threads), but SEPTA doesn't exist to maintain the old systems for railfans' pleasure. It exists to move people (note this) *today*.

I would have to agree with Umblehoon except that as usual are we the taxpayers getting our biggest bang for the buck? Anotherwords, will the trains move faster?

Everyone has this misconception that old signals and the number of stations on the system slow the train down, but in reality the trains are just plain sssllllooooowwwww. I don't get it. I was riding the R1 Airport the other day and the thing just pokes along. Especially from University City to just before the NEC flyover the train goes 20-30mph. Why are they so slow? Every route is like this too!

With the system upgrade, isn't there the theoretical potential of the trains moving faster? You're no longer dependent on being able to actually see the signal bridge, you're just given your signal directly (so software upgrades at a central location can improve how well trains are coordinated)? Granted, SEPTA can't even use its existing infrastructure for all it's worth, but at least with this improvement there will be better equipment left for whoever takes over for our soon-to-be-defunct transit agency.

The R5 Main Line to Lansdale will not see 70 mph unless:
1) All new catanary is installed on both tracks.
2) All curves are all super-elevated.
3) All crossing protection is retimed to 70 Mph.
and guess what........there are no plans to do or pay for any of this work.

Railfans may care that an old RDG signal is still standing... the people who pay for the system do not. If you wish to sponsor SEPTA to maintain a relic when the rest of the world is moving on to new technology, go for it... I will go on applauding any new embracing of technology that SEPTA dares implement.

Hate to break it to you (and others who've made similar arguments in other threads), but SEPTA doesn't exist to maintain the old systems for railfans' pleasure. It exists to move people (note this) *today*.

SEPTA should exist to incorporate some cost effectiveness into its operations. I seriously doubt that the capital cost of a new system would ever be made up in "savings" (if any) from the replacement of the old.

BTW, all new signal upgrades on SEPTA are going to be cab signalled without waysides except for interlockings and CP points.

I know they installed some Rule 562 running on the R3 between JENKIN and NESH, but I am not even sure that that is good for bi-directional running. Not only will they still have to get Form D's for reverse movements, but when the CSS fails they'll need to do absolute block. SEPTA didn't even install 'C' lamps at JENKIN or NESH so forget about a Rule 281a aspect.

You're no longer dependent on being able to actually see the signal bridge, you're just given your signal directly (so software upgrades at a central location can improve how well trains are coordinated)?

There is great advantage for retaining the wayside signals, most notably when the CSS equipment on the trains fail. Second, HA! While SEPTA has closed the towers and remoted control the 1234 Market there is nothing like the "intelligent design" you suggest. All that has happened is that the dispatchers have become overloaded and SEPTA's ontime performance has plumeted (remember how they had to cancel the On Time or On us promotion?)

The R5 Main Line to Lansdale will not see 70 mph unless:
1) All new catanary is installed on both tracks.
2) All curves are all super-elevated.
3) All crossing protection is retimed to 70 Mph.
and guess what........there are no plans to do or pay for any of this work.

See what I mean? There will be no faster service. Just wasted effort.

If it helps the fans any, at least the signals that will remain will be Reading-style signals, if not on their original masts. As for the reason there are two high mast signals at Carmel on the Warminster Line, the signal for Track #2 southbound will govern any moves running against the current from CP-Lynn through Carmel and points south.

Also, the Rule 562 running on the R3 is between JENKIN and CP-WOOD. Rule 261 also applies between the two points, as there is full cab signalling in both directions. No Form D's are needed for movements against the current, but if there is a CSS failure, they will need a Form D for an absolute block between WOOD and JENKIN since they did not provide for a Rule 281a "Clear To Next Interlocking" aspect....that indeed was a tad short-sighted.

The Main Line project (CARMEL to DALE) is to include:

1) New interlocking configuration at DALE
2) Cab signaling w/o waysides except at interlockings (Rule 562 and 261 in effect)
3) A new interlocking at Penllyn
4) Other improvements to track structure to allow 70mph operation

Provided that this project is not deferred, work is to begin late in 2005 and be complete by early 2008.

Capital projects are not affected by the current budget crises to the same extent. They may be deferred, but SEPTA or no SEPTA, they'll move on somehow.

Silverliner II wrote:If it helps the fans any, at least the signals that will remain will be Reading-style signals, if not on their original masts. As for the reason there are two high mast signals at Carmel on the Warminster Line, the signal for Track #2 southbound will govern any moves running against the current from CP-Lynn through Carmel and points south.

Thanks SilverlinerII, that at least answers my original question and proves my assumption about the dual masts protecting the Warminster Branch.