Amtrak Proposes Adding New Service to Scranton

The ex DLW old Mainline is not an option ,as is the cutoff beyond Andover,so settle for 1 of 2 bus options,bus to MN/NJT Port Jervis service or to Bingo for a possible Albany-Bingo -Hornell-Elmira-Buffalo NYS supported service
Direct service by rail NOT possible,and not cost effective.

Backshophoss wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:51 pm The ex DLW old Mainline is not an option ,as is the cutoff beyond Andover,so settle for 1 of 2 bus options,bus to MN/NJT Port Jervis service or to Bingo for a possible Albany-Bingo -Hornell-Elmira-Buffalo NYS supported service
Direct service by rail NOT possible,and not cost effective.

"Status quo" is no longer an option.

Why, did the population of Scranton and western NJ boom suddenly during the pandemic?

RE I80, when I would drive to Scranton from NYC and points East, I usually took GW, 80, then 380. Once in a while I'd go north to 84, west to Scranton via a bit of 380. And either way a bit of 81 l Depending on when and time of year, had to worry about snow, traffic, more traffic, and even more traffic. The experimental pavement on parts of 380 for years could be lots of fun, too.

Not sure why everyone is so focused on the Cutoff when there are two other intact, extant routes across NJ, both of which once hosted passenger service to the Lackawanna Valley, and both of which actually have an easier/less congested approach through the NJ suburbs and onto the Corridor. Has Amtrak or anyone else specifically stated this service would run via the old DL&W?

Let's go back and look at some quotes from the newspaper article on post 1 in this thread:

Amtrak, the nation’s largest passenger railroad, proposes a possible route between Scranton and New York City as part of its nationwide expansion plan.
Remember words are important, note that the MAP associated with article says "possible" not "proposed", to me those are different.

U.S. Rep. Matt Cartwright, D-8, Moosic, who has made re-establishing the service a priority, urged against too much optimism. - an understatement IMHO

Lang (Amtrak’s senior director for national-state relations) told the passengers group that Amtrak’s improved finances finally allow for expansion planning. Before the COVID-19 pandemic, the railroad projected a fiscal year-end deficit of only $33 million, almost breaking even for the first time in its history. He pointed to population centers along Florida’s gulf coast, Texas, Colorado and Arizona as potential targets for new service. - operative words are "Before the COVID-19 pandemic", all the budget optimism is over and NE PA is not Florida gulf coast, TX, CO or AZ.

“What this shows you is that Amtrak services have not really followed the population shift,” Lang said. “This is a problem for us, because if you think about it in a certain way … we’re dying. Yeah, we can continue to grow service or grow ridership each year. But if we’re not growing at the same rate as the population in the country is growing, and … if our trains are not serving where the people are moving to, you could argue that we’re losing our relevance.”
- several key statements here: growing service for growing population - I think we all agree the facts do not show Scranton is growing in population, this is the reason Lang states for expansion, it may be that Scranton needs rail service but that is another discussion.

"Lang never mentioned Scranton specifically." - so why is everyone so optimistic? Because a map says "possible" on it? (rhetorical question)

Every new Congress comes with Amtrak political office holders promising to look at new train services somewhere, seeking new larger subsidy funding in a new budget. It never fails for some to talk. But I have never seen any new services actually come on line for what seems like forever.

Can anyone guess what was the last expansion of Amtrak services was, excluding higher frequencies on an existing service? Think about it awhile before answering that last question.

Answer, in 2001 Amtrak inaugurates Downeaster trains between Boston and Maine.
For those who stated in 2019 Amtrak launches services to Springfield, MA you would be wrong. Amtrak has been servicing Springfield, MA since Amtrak was initiated in 1971.
For those who stated in 1999 Amtrak Heartland Flyer launches services to Oklahoma City you would be wrong. The Downeaster launched two years later.
For those who stated in 1995 Amtrak Cascades services extended into Vancouver, BC you would be wrong. The Downeaster launched six years later.
For those who stated in 2017 the new Winter Park Express, well it does not serve a new city or town not already served by the California Zephyr.

It has been almost 20 years since Amtrak has expanded services into a new city. The few cities in the last 30 years with brand new Amtrak services have all required state subsidies. ALL of them! All the proposals of brand new service expansions have whimpered in Congress since 2001. 20 years is 10 Congressional sessions. Ten!

If you wish to advocate for a new intercity Amtrak services to your home town, start at the state level first to line up the funding. Amtrak rarely refuses to provide a new service states are willing to subsidize.

NY&LB wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:15 am Let's go back and look at some quotes from the newspaper article on post 1 in this thread:

Amtrak, the nation’s largest passenger railroad, proposes a possible route between Scranton and New York City as part of its nationwide expansion plan.
Remember words are important, note that the MAP associated with article says "possible" not "proposed", to me those are different.

U.S. Rep. Matt Cartwright, D-8, Moosic, who has made re-establishing the service a priority, urged against too much optimism. - an understatement IMHO

Lang (Amtrak’s senior director for national-state relations) told the passengers group that Amtrak’s improved finances finally allow for expansion planning. Before the COVID-19 pandemic, the railroad projected a fiscal year-end deficit of only $33 million, almost breaking even for the first time in its history. He pointed to population centers along Florida’s gulf coast, Texas, Colorado and Arizona as potential targets for new service. - operative words are "Before the COVID-19 pandemic", all the budget optimism is over and NE PA is not Florida gulf coast, TX, CO or AZ.

“What this shows you is that Amtrak services have not really followed the population shift,” Lang said. “This is a problem for us, because if you think about it in a certain way … we’re dying. Yeah, we can continue to grow service or grow ridership each year. But if we’re not growing at the same rate as the population in the country is growing, and … if our trains are not serving where the people are moving to, you could argue that we’re losing our relevance.”
- several key statements here: growing service for growing population - I think we all agree the facts do not show Scranton is growing in population, this is the reason Lang states for expansion, it may be that Scranton needs rail service but that is another discussion.

"Lang never mentioned Scranton specifically." - so why is everyone so optimistic? Because a map says "possible" on it? (rhetorical question)

If anything, this bolsters a case for service to the *Lehigh* Valley, a/k/a Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton, with a metro population of ~850k-- I think it's the fastest-growing metro in the entire Northeast.

Ridgefielder wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:56 pm If anything, this bolsters a case for service to the *Lehigh* Valley, a/k/a Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton, with a metro population of ~850k-- I think it's the fastest-growing metro in the entire Northeast.

In the last three decades, Amtrak has only provided new services to new towns the states are willing to subsidize. Are NJ and PA fully aboard this plan with the required money? If not, another talk the talk proposal without the walk the walk implementation. You are being gas lighted again and again. Follow the money!

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:36 pm Can anyone guess what was the last expansion of Amtrak services was, excluding higher frequencies on an existing service? Think about it awhile before answering that last question.

Roanoke, VA I believe. Before that, Norfolk, VA and the Downeaster extension from Portland to Brunswick.

Amtrak did not initiate the Downeaster. NNEPRA merely contracted with them to run the service. The idea came out of Maine, not Washington, DC.

Rockingham Racer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:47 pm Amtrak did not initiate the Downeaster. NNEPRA merely contracted with them to run the service. The idea came out of Maine, not Washington, DC.

Didn't Guilford/PanAm actually bid to run it at one point prior to startup?

Off topic, but Guilford actually objected to 79MPH trains running on their 112lb. rail. They lost in court.

Reminder; this is bout AMTRAK service to Scranton. Not NJT or an NJT/SEPTA/PA/NJ service. However, it would require state contributions, of course, but let's not conflate funding with who operates and builds it.

Old thread... but it sure needs a reality check.

First off.. you all know that the Pennsylvania portion of the D&LW is intact and has a live connection on the east end right? Without needing to restore the NJT portion of the Cut-off?

Yep, you can roll a train out of Hoboken or Penn and get to Scranton without needing to go to Allentown or Binghamton. Right now with no track changes needed.

First off pick which way you want to get to Phillipsburg, NJ there are a couple different ways leading over NJT and then NS. Some may need upgrades, some may not.

Phillipsburg NJ will require a direction change, but your going to likely be running a cab car on this train anyway. Such moves had been done on the Vermonter anyway. Plus side is, it looks like someone has preserved the passenger station here.

Then you operate north over the 22 miles of the Portland Secondary and the Stroudsburg Secondary. NS owned line.
This gets you back onto the DL&W mainline to Scranton, currently all intact and run by the Delaware Lackawanna and owned by a government rail authority. Steamtown runs excursions on the line right now.

There are three other routes. I will mention them.
One would be run to Harrisburg PA. Then use the NS route west up the old Buffalo LIne to North Umberland. Then the NS acquired ex CPRS/D&H line to Scranton. Currently called the Sunbury line. This route is mostly signaled, all good rail, and likely day one ready.. Now that I think of it, this is the best route. Even though it's the longest. Because it uses the existing route to Harrisburg.

Second would be to run via Allentown over the NS and RBMN. (Reading Northern).. all signaled, and all good rail.. HOWEVER. it means dealing with Andy, the private owner of the RBMN. Andy loves to sue the hell out of various rail authorities in the region. And I don't know if he would just see Amtrak as another "Government interference" . He also got in a huge fight with Jim Thorpe over trying to "Tax" his excursion operations.
Andy also runs his own passenger trains. Yes they are excursions. But Amtrak running over the very line where he runs his excursions could very well be seen as cutting into his profitable passenger business.

Third would be to go via Port Jervis and Binghamton.
This involves using the NYS&W controlled CNYK route (former Erie). And would involve changing directions

The X factor here is NS is in a PSR kick, and has filed to remove all signaling from it's lines into Scranton.

So now... that I have pointed out four viable route. One that involves using a extensively run Amtrak owned line. Pick and choose, it IS doable.