Thoughts on a new Florida train

I think that there should be another train from the NE to Either MIA or ORL.

It would travel on the Star's current route and have 2 or 3 sleeping cars.


THere could be a train from Chicago to FL running on existing routes. It would take the Cardinal's route as far as Staunton, VA, and then continue on the Piedmont sub as far as Doswell and and then switch to the the Csx's main North-south line to Richmond and conitnue on to florida.

WHat are Ya'll's ideas?

Well I would like the idea of a Boston to Miami run as well as a Chicago-Indy-Nashville-Atlanta-Jacksonville-Miami with a section to Tampa but Amtrak needs to prortize 1st Get better useage out of cars, 2, Get adaqute funding and 3. Get Wreck Repairs out.

AmtrakFan

when you say NE, do you mean New England?

This subject has been addressed many times at the various boards, but that hardly precludes further discussion here at this time.

The constraints for additional Northeast-Florida service are of course "the usual"; 1) Equipment 2) Funding and 3) CSX track capacity. The demand is there and any additional service, particularly if routed along the SAL through North and Central Fla serving Gainesville, Ocala, and The Villages would "pull its weight'. Existing schedules are quite speed competitive with safe and lawful driving times, and lest we forget there are perfectly competent people living in New York, and to a lesser extent, other NEC cities, that choose not to own an automobile.

Midwest to Florida service is a completely different issue. There is simply no way that any conceivable rail route could be speed competitive with again, safe and lawful driving. During its "zenith" days circa 1977, when Amtrak assembled the best LD equipment it could find and assigned it to the Floridian, it was on a 47 hr CHI-MIA schedule. From much experiencek, that trip can be driven safefully and lawfully, including a nine hour rest stop, in about 34 hours.

No question whatever, the IC-CofG-ACL-FEC City of Miami was schedule CHI-MIA in about 37 hours, but the route has been truncated, the IC Centralia Div has been singled tracked, and once again there is considerably more freight traffic. Further at that time I-75 had not been completed. I can recall as late as 1972 a long stretch detoured over US 41 between Chatanooga and Atlanta. Semis back then hardly had the power they do today; you went over hill and dale at their speed.

Having used the existing 30-WAS-91 connection on enough occasions, I don't think of such as grossly inconvenient. but then retirement means you don't worry, you just be happy.

Likely the case could be made for a CHI-MIA train to serve the intermediate markets such as Chi-Nashville, Atlanta-Jacksonville, et al, but with the "death" of the KEYCARD, that subject along with any other route expansions, at this time, is most definitely not "on the back burner" but more likely "in the deep freeze".

I remember when there were talks to extend the Capitol Limited from its terminus in Wasington DC to a point in Florida. But I think such a train was going to replace the Silver Meteor and make passengers north of DC (on the NEC) transfer transfer to a corridor train. Never came to be obviously. I'll let someone else comment further or correct me on this.

But if the above did come to be, would this require just one more trainset for the run through? No new cities would be served, but it would (1) offer a guaranteed connection for those passengers travelling from the midwest to the East Coast and continuing down to Florida (2) require less equipment versus a launch of a new route requiring a whole set of equipment and (3) get better utlization out of existing equipment (provided things could operate on time!). Market is there, particularly in the late fall to early spring.

Amtrak's best long distance market is probably the northeast to/from
Florida. A choice of two different trains over basically two different
intermediate routes makes the most sense. This seems to be the present
situation.
It would make absolutely no sense to change one of the existing trains
to run out of Chicago. Having said that, if there is a practical route that
still exists between Chicago and Florida, then I am all for a train over it.
We still have to remember that at present, there are no funds for any
additional trains or routes, not enough equipment even for existing routes
much less new overnight routes.
For the present, we will have to be satisfied with a connection to/from
29 and 30 at DC.
We have also to realize that we have governments in Washington and
Tallahassee that do not really want any intercity passenger trains.....
Noel Weaver

Bring back the Floridian is my opinion.

I did in fact once learn from relaible inside sources that Amtrak did consider a Superliner equipped CHI-WAS-MIA Capitol-Star, but dismissed the idea account loss of the through service to the Northeast.

History also bears out that the through service is of unquestioned concern to any passenger operator. Be assured that on many an occasion, the PRR threatened to break the connection of the Florida trains at Wash contending they were getting the short end of the Interline Divisions "stick" Those threats were enough to have the FEC/SAL/ACL/RF&P "vassals' making the pilgrimage to Phila and begging at the throne of King Pennsy for sufferance. Of course PRR always walked away with a greater share of the Division and, circa 1955, there was imposed a "reservation service charge" for all travel originating on the PRR for which there was no division of that revenue between the roads.

It has often been noted that the "lights burned late at 500 Water" over the decision whether the SCL would join Amtrak. Immediately prior to A-DAY, the SCL believed they had an out of pocket profit from running the Silvers and Champions. But they were concerned that Amtrak might break the connection at Wash or even Richmond in an efort to force SCL to join.

Lastly, we should note that, hard as it may be to believe today, Amtrak was actually flush with Superliners, circa 1995. After the S-II deliveries and the "Mercer cuts", there were Superliners "stored servicable'. The Capitol Star proposal would have simply been a way to put them to work.

when you say NE, do you mean New England?

No, he actually means NorthEast, not New England, however, it would be nice for us to have a direct, one-seat ride from BOS to MIA and all points in Florida.

I don't know what the current Viewliner situation is (haven't seen an updated list recently). However, one idea I saw elsewhere (which I haven't taken too seriously simply because it doesn't address the realities of the equipment) was that, if Amtrak could repair a couple of Heritage diners, and wasn't going to send the Viewliners from the Three Rivers cuts over to the Lake Shore Limited, they could combine the Capitol Limited and Silver Star, with a through sleeper/coach up the NEC to New York. The Superliners on the Capitol Limited could be used to run the Cardinal on a daily schedule.

I believe the Trains Magazine article from a few months ago (February? March?) said the Silver Star requires four sets of equipment. The Capitol/Star would require six, so take the Cardinal's cars, plus a couple extra Viewliners from the Three Rivers to make up for the difference (still would need one more car), plus two dining cars (if they could repair them from somewhere), and that should amount to the number of trainsets needed for the Capitol/Star run through.

But, of course Amtrak could never do something as out of the box as that, now could they?

All this is hypothetical of course, since Amtrak can't even think about starting up a new service right now. But sometimes hypotheticals are fun, so here goes.

Seems to me that the best and easiest-to-implement route from Chicago to Florida would be the Cardinal route to Cincinnati, then CSX via Atlanta to Jacksonville (joining at Jessup, GA?), then follow existing Florida routes to the south. The Cardinal takes about 8.5 hours to Cincinnati, and current service takes about 9 from Jacksonville to Miami if you don't go through Tampa.

Mapquest says it's 800 road miles from Cincinnati to Jacksonville and takes 13 hours to drive. If a train could make that same trip in say 20 hours (I'm trying to be realistic, but I'm not familiar with that particular route, so additional input is welcome), then you've got a 38 hour trip from Chicago to Miami, or 29 hours from Chicago to Jacksonville. You could schedule it either as 2 days and 1 night or 2 nights and one day.

Either way, the 38 hour end-to-end time should be slightly faster than a train through Washington. Currently the Capitol takes almost 18 hours and the Meteor takes 22.5, or 40.5 end-to-end if you don't have significant dwell time in Washington. My proposed "Florida Cardinal" would not only be faster, but also open up several new markets, including Atlanta to Florida, Cincinnati to Florida, and Atlanta to Chicago. It would unfortunately miss Nashville and Louisville, but would also miss the slow segment from Louisville to Indianapolis.

That's a good idea you came up with, Mr. C & O 15. I agree with that route, very few speed restrictions, and a 38 hour ride from one place to another, that's not bad after all. I would go for it too.

I don't know about that one, Messrs C&O and Paniagua.

Existing traffic along the NS/SRY/CNOTP "Rat Hole division" - the one-time route of the 'Royal Palm" is quite heavy. Same applies over on the CSX/L&N route of "The Flamingo".

As for the "no speed restrictions' topography, come on out here and take a drive along I-75 Cinci-Chatanooga. Absent that, take my word the topography hardly resembles that of along the ACL or SAL (Meteor/Star) and/or I-95.

Oh all right Mr. Norman, I gotta agree with you then, at least you got to ride that line before they killed it, I wasn't even around when you rode those trains, but yeah, a lot of freight traffic, and those usual speed restrictions during construction.

I guess the WAS Capitol Limited-Silver Star connection will be the way to railroad from CHI to MIA and in between.

Leaving aside track capacity, Mr. Norman, which I'm sure would be a big issue if this were anything more than hypothetical, did I come anywhere close on guessing the time of 20 hours from Cincinnati to Jacksonville? I have so far not found an on-line schedule for the former L&N trains.

[Edit] Is the CSX faster or slower than the NS from Cincinnati to Atlanta? CSX would have the advantage from an operational point of view of being a single host railroad from Cincinnati all the way to south Florida.