Amtrak Auto Train Discussion

JimBoylan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:11 am I suspect some of this is to combine the separate Coach Diner and Coach Lounge into 1 car and add another Sleeping Car, so the train length stays the same. ago.

Well, let's see if this "realignment" of Coach F&B will result in reassignment of the one 330XX Sightseer Lounge in the pool. Sure seems like a waste of a car on the "if you've seen one Pine Tree, you've seen 'em all" vistas whenever a Western train is sent on its way with a 370XX Diner Lounge in place of a regularly assigned Sightseer.

With regular assignments of the 370XX cars limited to 21-22, Eagle, and 58-59, City, requiring four cars each, there must be, of the seventeen cars, some laying around doing nothing. Well, three of 'em could find their way to the Auto-Train.

A PHL-SAV train would make a great second nightly frequency and serve all those northeasterners who have retired to the Georgia and Carolina coasts as well as making it possible to drive onward to ATL, TPA, or Orlando.(which are not that different from a drive from Sanford to Miami)

^^^Great minds think alike. I was also thinking Savannah as a potential destination; plenty of yard space along the old Seaboard Coast line in that area. It's a nice station; the station sidings are not long enough for 30+ cars IIRC but it could work. And a good loop to turn the train. Parking there is pretty limited, and it is in the middle of nowhere as far as SAV goes. I do wish they'd reconnect downtown somehow, but that would require changing ends and probably a crew change (that's a separate topic for another time). Another reservation would be 95 can still be pretty bad with a good way to go down to FL.

What about Jax? Or the FEC?

PHL-JAX IS TOTALLY REASONABLE

If the goal is to add a second daily frequency that mostly doubles capacity on the existing route, PHL-JAX is ideal:
From LOR to "I-476/I-95" is a 150 mile shift
From SFA to Amelia Island (north of JAX) is a matching 150 mile shift
Such a pair would be an "obvious" second daily frequency where essentially all existing customers would have the same amount of driving (what less you did on the North end would be "paid back" on the South end.

But let me lobby for *shortening* the running distance (and maybe relaxing the cutoff/delivery times) to "stop short" by 100 miles.

Shifting it 150 miles (3.5 driving hours) north on the north end:
- Taps PHL/So NJ/Atlantic City directly, creating two great choices*
- Ends greater NYC's timing anxiety (and makes it a daylight drive most of the year**)
- 4 hours to Hartford, Syracuse, Albany
- 5 hours to Springfield, Worcester, Providence, & Lake George, Saratoga Springs

A station near SAV gets you
- <1hr to Hilton Head
- 2hrs to everything from Kiawah/Folly (Charleston) to Amelia Is, Fla
- 3hrs to Jacksonville/St Augustine FL
- 4 hours to Myrtle Beach, Atlanta, & Daytona
- 5 hours to Disney

*The PHL market would then have the choice of
Drive locally to board, but drive 5 hours to get to Disney
Drive 3.5 hours to LOR but drive 1 hour to Disney

**I think a lot of older drivers avoid driving after dark due solely to vision issues

gokeefe wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:39 pm

mmi16 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:17 pmFood Trucks at Lorton and Sanford - say good bye to Dining Cars. Stock up at the food truck for dinner or go hungry until the Amtrak served 'breakfast'.

This is not correct. There will be a Cross Country Cafe service for coach passengers. Additionally the Diner for sleeping car passengers will see significant upgrades.

Believe all that and I have a bridge or two to sell you!

Maybe Amtrak should consider an asymmetrical schedule? Why does the train have to have a mirror schedule? What if the southbound train leaves two hours later? Cutoff time moves to 4:30 PM (or even 5:00 PM if Amtrak could tighten up their procedures) so you give people from the Northeast additional time to get there. Departure moves to 6:00 PM. Arrival would be at 11:00 AM in Florida which still gives you plenty of time to get anywhere in the state that day. Northbound would have no change.

Would 5 hours turnaround in Sanford and 7 hours in Lorton work?

How about maybe an hour later?

Unless there's some radical improvement in CSX's speed, or something to lengthen the train, I don't see anything more than tweeks +/- 1 hour.

Is there any limit to the lenght of a train (single level ) on Amtrak's NEC trackage ?

I was assuming the AT would run on CSX (former RF&P to Long Bridge, not go to WAS, but go via Virginia Avenue tunnel and into the B&O to and through Baltimore via Howard St tunnel and the whole way to Philly on the CSX's B&O) always parallel to the NEC.

Arlington wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:10 pm I was assuming the AT would run on CSX (former RF&P to Long Bridge, not go to WAS, but go via Virginia Avenue tunnel and into the B&O to and through Baltimore via Howard St tunnel and the whole way to Philly on the CSX's B&O) always parallel to the NEC.

To lengthen the Auto Train further north you would have to increase the speed of the train all the way from Florida to D.C. as well. Sanford to Lorton is 855 rail miles, taking 17 hours to travel that far (4 pm departure with 9 am arrival). That leaves 7 hours a day to turnaround (unload and load) each train. It can take days for the Auto Train to get back on schedule after a significant delay, so that 7 hours turnaround is needed if for anything else as padding so that can happen. Some math = 855/17 = 50 mph average.
Let's add the 145 rail miles needed to extend the train to just short 9 miles to Philadelphia. At the average 50 mph, it would take 3 more hours. So it would now take 20 hours to travel that far (4pm departure to 12 noon arrival). Which would mean turning the train around in the unacceptable 4 hours. To get back to a barely acceptable 7 hours turnaround, the Auto train would have to travel 1000 rail miles in 17 hours. Some more math = 1000/17= 59 mph average.

Where and how are you going to find that additional 9 mph average on the existing 855 miles between Sanford and Lorton? How much will it cost? Then you have to take into account the maximum speed of the auto racks, which I doubt is much more than 60 mph - the speed the extended train to south Philadelphia will have to average.

Chances of ever achieving a working train schedule for the extended Auto Train = zero.

Trying to extend the Auto Train will require more equipment sets to make it work at least 2 more as a starting point.
! set at each terminal turning while 2 sets are moving.
The current service runs on 2 complete sets and a few spare cars at Sanford shop,as long as CSX doesn't screw up,
it runs fine.
LEAVE IT ALONE,DON'T MESS WITH IT
The failure of the Kentucky-Sanford run should prove that point!

Go back a page Ron & Backshop and actually read my proposal for PHL-JAX.

1) I am not touching "the Original." I am proposing a whole second daily pair and two new terminals, and two entirely new trainsets.

2) I propose a new route the same or shorter time-in-motion. The 150 miles "longer" north to just south of Philadelphia would be offset in Florida by stopping 150 miles north (just north of Jacksonville) or even shortening it 250 miles and having it end in Savannah (and serve ATL & SC/GA coasts)

Where does Amtrak then site the terminals? Land isn’t that cheap around Philly or Jacksonville. Also, I’m concerned that there won’t be enough market of people going to lower Georgia and upper Florida.

From the CSX clearance map), I'd really like to put the terminal in the scrubby industrial docklands stuff just RR East of PHL airport. Right now the Doublestack/Autorack clearance "runs out" at Twin Oaks/Boothwyn PA.

Frankly, I'd expect the economic performance of PHL-JAX to far exceed LOR-SFA, and to be the preferred train for most of its traditional customers, which should make it easier to borrow or ask PA for help with the terminal. It would succeed for all the original reasons plus: (a) be way better at helping folks avoid the worst of I-95 (b) still deliver folks to the threshold of Central Florida.

And maybe save SAV as the counterpart for something like a *3rd* if CSX ever gets doublestack clearance as far as NWK (have fun with the CSX clearance map). And freak you out further: how about RVR to Lakeland?

If Anderson's re-do of the current train shifts it into an operating profit, the case that local govt's should pay for terminals gets really compelling.

Arlington wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:23 amIf Anderson's re-do of the current train shifts it into an operating profit, the case that local govt's should pay for terminals gets really compelling.

Very much agreed. That's been my thinking on extensions in the past as well. Amtrak can get the capital funding via agreements with localities and keep the federal fiscal process at bay if the train is making money.

If there were to be a terminal at Worcester, MA and assuming the train stays on CSX how far down the East Coast could it get before having to turn?