Restarting the Broadway Limited

Dream on my friend!!
Noel Weaver

The negotiations seem to be on going... Sure it's just Harrisburg to Pittsburgh but I figure it's a key step. If there's a second train from PGH-NYP there might be a better chance Amtrak implements the through cars or at least adjust the schedule(s) that minimizes the wait time in Pittsburgh to/from the Capitol Limited.

http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/bri ... 1605190039" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:The negotiations seem to be on going... Sure it's just Harrisburg to Pittsburgh but I figure it's a key step. If there's a second train from PGH-NYP there might be a better chance Amtrak implements the through cars or at least adjust the schedule(s) that minimizes the wait time in Pittsburgh to/from the Capitol Limited.

Maybe that could reschedule one of the two trains for better transfers to the Capital Limited, but not both of them.

I'm impressed that this discussion is even taking place.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:The negotiations seem to be on going... Sure it's just Harrisburg to Pittsburgh but I figure it's a key step.

http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/bri ... 1605190039" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's a decent discussion at the Post-Gazette site, and I added a plug for the proposed service.

electricron wrote:

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:The negotiations seem to be on going... Sure it's just Harrisburg to Pittsburgh but I figure it's a key step. If there's a second train from PGH-NYP there might be a better chance Amtrak implements the through cars or at least adjust the schedule(s) that minimizes the wait time in Pittsburgh to/from the Capitol Limited.

Maybe that could reschedule one of the two trains for better transfers to the Capital Limited, but not both of them.

We really only need one schedule close to the CL westbound. Technically the eastbound wait time isn't bad except for the time of day (more of a CL problem than a Pennsylvanian problem).

In the 2010 PRIIA (https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/152/943/PR ... ed-PIP.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) Amtrak was in favor of through cars (even though nothing happened with them) but did not recommend changing the westbound Pennsylvanian schedule:

"The essence of this PIP is a route improvement, specifically the introduction of direct service
between the Midwest, eastern Pennsylvania, and points in New Jersey achieved by operating
through Chicago - New York cars on the Capitol Limited and the Pennsylvanian east of
Pittsburgh. The introduction of a one-seat ride will mitigate a significant deterrent to travel on
Amtrak between these points and is expected to add over 20,000 passengers annually.

Except for the addition of 15-20 minutes at Pittsburgh for switching cars, the proposed PIP
requires essentially no change to the current schedules of either the Capitol Limited or the
Pennsylvanian. Although maintaining the current Pennsylvanian schedule results in longer dwell
times at Pittsburgh for the through New York-Chicago cars, preserving the current schedule
times between Pittsburgh and New York is important because the Pennsylvanian is a corridor
service that serves local markets between these points. The present and recommended future
schedule for the Capitol Limited is shown below; the future schedule includes the additional time
in Pittsburgh. "

Well if there were two trains daily PGH-NYP then they would be more likely to make the change. Even right after they canceled the Broadway and the initial Three Rivers terminated in Pittsburgh the arrival time in PGH was 10:10pm so the layover there was less than half the time it currently is now.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0018" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But back then the Three Rivers was essentially the second Pennsylvanian so that allowed them to do so. That's the problem with pushing back the current westbound Pennsylvanian times now. I kind of actually think the current schedule is a compromise because ideally they would arrive in Pittsburgh earlier than 8:05pm. I would guess if there were two daily PGH-NYP trains you would see schedules closer to the old Pennsylvanian/Three Rivers (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0030" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) or Pennsylvanian/Broadway Limited (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0018" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) schedules. My dream would be to one day see a train travel the graveyard shift between PGH and PHL where Philly residents can travel overnight and wake up in Pittsburgh the next morning (and vice versa for the return trip). I don't even think sleeper cars would be necessary. Of course you'd need at least 3 if not 4 daily in each direction before that would happen. And overnight service doesn't even exist in California between Los Angeles and the Bay Area and LA-SF have way more people than PHL-PGH.

Of course the bigger problem with the Pittsburgh transfer is the Capitol Limited. Even Pittsburgh residents are screwed with the CL as they would arrive back in CHI at 5:05am (the westbound departure is just before midnight). That's why the BL/TR was a better CHI-PGH train than the CL is now. I don't see a real reason to rush to get to Washington to catch the southbound Silver Star when the connection from the northbound SS isn't even guaranteed anymore and a later departure out of CHI helps with connections from the western trains. In Amtrak's 2011 PRIIA, they suggested pushing the eastbound CL back to 7:30pm and the eastbound LSL leaving at 6pm.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/570/756/20 ... _final.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think Amtrak is well aware of the problems in Pennsylvania as they pertain to LD trains. But there are two big pain in the butts in the way, NS and CSX.

PennDOT should really ask the feds for help to upgrade HAR-PGH while Obama's still in the White House. After all, the route was part of the 2009 Vision for HSR and I believe PA did receive money from them in 2009/2010.

I think the successor will be more than receptive. Too late now anyways.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:I think Amtrak is well aware of the problems in Pennsylvania as they pertain to LD trains. But there are two big pain in the butts in the way, NS and CSX.

At least CSX has zero* influence on a second Pennsylvanian or first Broadway, as long as both use the current Amtrak routes.

* Except for a tiny bit around Cleveland

mtuandrew wrote:

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:I think Amtrak is well aware of the problems in Pennsylvania as they pertain to LD trains. But there are two big pain in the butts in the way, NS and CSX.

At least CSX has zero* influence on a second Pennsylvanian or first Broadway, as long as both use the current Amtrak routes.

* Except for a tiny bit around Cleveland

But CSX would have to be involved in any CL schedule change (PGH-WAS) as well as any LSL schedule change (upstate NY). Why haven't those changes from the PRIIA been made?

The answer to that question is almost certainly related to the negotiations related to the Section 209 formulas which as required by PRIIA readjusted the state funding requirements for state directed services. Pennsylvania's portion in particular was difficulty due to the Keystone trains running on Amtrak owned tracks with electric traction. This funding formula was only recently finalized and now they are negotiating the service extensions as noted.

First off, I AM VERY MUCH PRO PASSENGER AND PRO AMTRAK. Just because I am pro passenger and pro Amtrak doesn't mean that I can support routes that are not realistic, would be expensive to establish, serve a limited number of communities or for other reasons. A second overnight or I should say a third overnight train across Ohio and Indiana cost just as much as an effective day train and Ohio and Indiana do not offer any real support for passenger trains, it is against their thinking from just about all of their state leadership. Unfortunately we have the same problem here in Florida. IF Ohio and Indiana would cooperate and chip in financially these two states could have an all day train between Pittsburgh and Chicago that might do all right. Philadelphia - Pittsburgh is a realistic day corridor and I think this corridor warrants more than one train. Trains operating between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh need to concentrate on that market and operate on time regardless of whether a connection with the Capital is on time at Pittsburgh or not. Who wants to be waiting at Johnstown, Altoona or wherever else enroute while their corridor type train is still waiting in Pittsburgh for a late connection. Amtrak's most vital and important markets are the Northeast Corridor, California, Illinois, the Pacific Northwest and a couple of other spots, the rest of their patronage is overnight trains which still serve a legitimate and vital purpose but it is not too likely that we will ever get much more in this respect. The Broadway was once a first class train and very important not only to its passengers but to the Pennsylvania Railroad as well. Unfortunately those class days are gone and they are not likely to come back again. Amtrak is short of funds, equipment and as long as this is the situation they are not in a position to establish any more long distance, overnight trains anywhere. Even if this were not the case there are better markets than the Broadway that lack any sort of through service, I can name many of them but we have all heard that before. I am sorry if my comments are not the most popular on here but we need to use common sense in what we speak for and try to promote.
Have a good one.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:First off, I AM VERY MUCH PRO PASSENGER AND PRO AMTRAK. Just because I am pro passenger and pro Amtrak doesn't mean that I can support routes that are not realistic, would be expensive to establish, serve a limited number of communities or for other reasons. A second overnight or I should say a third overnight train across Ohio and Indiana cost just as much as an effective day train and Ohio and Indiana do not offer any real support for passenger trains, it is against their thinking from just about all of their state leadership. Unfortunately we have the same problem here in Florida. IF Ohio and Indiana would cooperate and chip in financially these two states could have an all day train between Pittsburgh and Chicago that might do all right. Philadelphia - Pittsburgh is a realistic day corridor and I think this corridor warrants more than one train. Trains operating between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh need to concentrate on that market and operate on time regardless of whether a connection with the Capital is on time at Pittsburgh or not. Who wants to be waiting at Johnstown, Altoona or wherever else enroute while their corridor type train is still waiting in Pittsburgh for a late connection. Amtrak's most vital and important markets are the Northeast Corridor,

Pretty much echoes what I said in a similar threat or possibly this one, shorter corridor between CHI-PGH and PGH-PHL is the best answer and the optimal answer. However people long for days gone by where there were at least fifteen trains servicing this route all running through to Chicago. Maybe when we have a dedicated high speed rail corridor between Chicago and New York that will happen again, but not anytime soon.

Noel Weaver wrote:First off, I AM VERY MUCH PRO PASSENGER AND PRO AMTRAK. Just because I am pro passenger and pro Amtrak doesn't mean that I can support routes that are not realistic, would be expensive to establish, serve a limited number of communities or for other reasons. A second overnight or I should say a third overnight train across Ohio and Indiana cost just as much as an effective day train and Ohio and Indiana do not offer any real support for passenger trains, it is against their thinking from just about all of their state leadership. Unfortunately we have the same problem here in Florida. IF Ohio and Indiana would cooperate and chip in financially these two states could have an all day train between Pittsburgh and Chicago that might do all right. Philadelphia - Pittsburgh is a realistic day corridor and I think this corridor warrants more than one train. Trains operating between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh need to concentrate on that market and operate on time regardless of whether a connection with the Capital is on time at Pittsburgh or not. Who wants to be waiting at Johnstown, Altoona or wherever else enroute while their corridor type train is still waiting in Pittsburgh for a late connection. Amtrak's most vital and important markets are the Northeast Corridor, California, Illinois, the Pacific Northwest and a couple of other spots, the rest of their patronage is overnight trains which still serve a legitimate and vital purpose but it is not too likely that we will ever get much more in this respect. The Broadway was once a first class train and very important not only to its passengers but to the Pennsylvania Railroad as well. Unfortunately those class days are gone and they are not likely to come back again. Amtrak is short of funds, equipment and as long as this is the situation they are not in a position to establish any more long distance, overnight trains anywhere. Even if this were not the case there are better markets than the Broadway that lack any sort of through service, I can name many of them but we have all heard that before. I am sorry if my comments are not the most popular on here but we need to use common sense in what we speak for and try to promote.
Have a good one.
Noel Weaver

Well if Amtrak/Congress have this line of thinking, now do you see why I want to get rid of the Cardinal? Why can't we have both? Don't ask me, ask Congress. And if they are competing for dollars, I'm always going to fight for my train. No way they can tell me that this train is worthless yet they continue to spend money (OUR money) on worse trains. Sorry Woody but as long as Mr. Cold Water is fighting me, I have to defend my train. There is no way I will accept anyone saying we don't have any money/equipment for this train while they are running the Cardinal.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:First off, I AM VERY MUCH PRO PASSENGER AND PRO AMTRAK. Just because I am pro passenger and pro Amtrak doesn't mean that I can support routes that are not realistic, would be expensive to establish, serve a limited number of communities or for other reasons. A second overnight or I should say a third overnight train across Ohio and Indiana cost just as much as an effective day train and Ohio and Indiana do not offer any real support for passenger trains, it is against their thinking from just about all of their state leadership. Unfortunately we have the same problem here in Florida. IF Ohio and Indiana would cooperate and chip in financially these two states could have an all day train between Pittsburgh and Chicago that might do all right. Philadelphia - Pittsburgh is a realistic day corridor and I think this corridor warrants more than one train. Trains operating between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh need to concentrate on that market and operate on time regardless of whether a connection with the Capital is on time at Pittsburgh or not. Who wants to be waiting at Johnstown, Altoona or wherever else enroute while their corridor type train is still waiting in Pittsburgh for a late connection. Amtrak's most vital and important markets are the Northeast Corridor, California, Illinois, the Pacific Northwest and a couple of other spots, the rest of their patronage is overnight trains which still serve a legitimate and vital purpose but it is not too likely that we will ever get much more in this respect. The Broadway was once a first class train and very important not only to its passengers but to the Pennsylvania Railroad as well. Unfortunately those class days are gone and they are not likely to come back again. Amtrak is short of funds, equipment and as long as this is the situation they are not in a position to establish any more long distance, overnight trains anywhere. Even if this were not the case there are better markets than the Broadway that lack any sort of through service, I can name many of them but we have all heard that before. I am sorry if my comments are not the most popular on here but we need to use common sense in what we speak for and try to promote.
Have a good one.
Noel Weaver

Well if Amtrak/Congress have this line of thinking, now do you see why I want to get rid of the Cardinal? Why can't we have both? Don't ask me, ask Congress. And if they are competing for dollars, I'm always going to fight for my train. No way they can tell me that this train is worthless yet they continue to spend money (OUR money) on worse trains. Sorry Woody but as long as Mr. Cold Water is fighting me, I have to defend my train. There is no way I will accept anyone saying we don't have any money/equipment for this train while they are running the Cardinal.

You managed to bury your reply somewhere in the quote Noel.