Restarting the Broadway Limited

More than one-a-day service on LD routes makes good sense to me.

Noel Weaver wrote:Running more service between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh would make a lot of sense and I think it would atrract a good number of passengers as well. Restoring the Broadway would not make a lot of sense because Pittsburgh already has a through train to and from Chicago and Philadelphia also has a tri-weekly train to and from Chicago. I think it is up to the State of Pennsylvania to come up with some money in order for any improvements to occur. As for the territory west of Pittsburgh both Ohio and Indiana have shown practically no support for any improvements in passenger service by rail in their states so it will probably remain as it is. Money talks, BS walks.
Noel Weaver

Clearly the emphasis of any state transportation budget should be for in-state routes over interstate ones. You can argue why should PA (or any state) pay for people to leave the state but then again passengers will also be more likely to enter the state if they have better transportation options. You would think Hershey (near Harrisburg) and Lancaster are somewhat decent tourist destinations to want to encourage out of state passengers to visit. Maybe a train from those cities to/from CHI/Ohio does benefit PA too. No doubt the PGH-PHL (NYP) is more important to PennDot and it should be. But I think states should at least consider long distance routes as well.

I mention the Michigan reroute because I would hope they might contribute to the train if it gives Michigan residents better routes to the East (or at least Toledo). I think New Jersey would benefit from restarting the Broadway Limited as well. I think even New York has something to gain although admittedly a lot less than the other states.

Hopefully at least Amtrak will start the through cars to/from the Capitol Limited. The gaps in the schedule will still be there according to the CL's 2010 PRIIA. But if there are 2-3 trains between PGH and PHL/NYP they will try to reschedule service so there is a shorter wait time in Pittsburgh (whether it's through cars or a forced transfer). Or they should get better CL times in PGH so the transfer wouldn't be as undesirable.

In reality, Congress should be the ones starting this train but we all know they don't want to. I don't want to hear from Congress that "we don't have any money" as long as some other piece of crap is still running. If Pennsylvania has to pay to get this train, we should stop giving all these po dunk states free Amtrak service then. Why should the rest of us have to pay for trains we will never want to ride?

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:I was riding a SEPTA train today when I saw one of the maps on the train. It had "Amtrak to Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, CHICAGO" (Chicago wasn't in caps but you get the point). I would've taken a picture but the battery on my phone had died. The map on SEPTA's website only has Harrisburg and Pittsburgh listed (sigh!)

You can take Amtrak to Chicago. On the Cardinal.

JoeBas wrote:

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:I was riding a SEPTA train today when I saw one of the maps on the train. It had "Amtrak to Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, CHICAGO" (Chicago wasn't in caps but you get the point). I would've taken a picture but the battery on my phone had died. The map on SEPTA's website only has Harrisburg and Pittsburgh listed (sigh!)

You can take Amtrak to Chicago. On the Cardinal.

1. Almost 27 hours!

2. Philadelphia can take the Cardinal to Chicago. Harrisburg can't. Lancaster can't. About ten cities between Pittsburgh and Philly can't. The Broadway Limited wasn't just a Philly to Chicago train, it was the rest of Pennsylvania to Chicago train. And Pittsburgh's hours on the BL/TR were way better than the current CL times. Who wants to get in at 5:05am?

The Cardinal is not a legitimate train from Chicago to Philly, New Jersey, Baltimore, Washington, or New York (especially New York or Washington). The problem isn't the train isn't daily, the problem is the train takes so damn long. To act as though these areas should accept the Cardinal as a substitute for the Broadway Limited is like saying a hamburger is a filet mignon (and we know how much people complain about the loss of the diner on the Silver Star).

You forget the Capitol Ltd with a connection at Pittsburg to Phila and New York on #42,and that's daily service.

Ohio WILL NOT support any form of intrastate passenger service,the "3 "C" service" has been attempted
a few times and has gone nowhere at the state government level. Don't expect help for any thru passenger
services in that state.

NS is finally cleaning up the access route into/out of Chicago,so 48/49 will run better thru that area
One can hope the Cleveland- Buffalo "joint running"" corridor between NS and CSX will get fixed somehow.

As for 40/41 and 440/441,Broadway/Three Rivers,there will be a need for state support for them to return,
without Ohio and Indiana,it's a LOST cause.
PA barely supports 42/43 and SEPTA,like most states,has money(budget) problems.
That might change decades from now,but NOT at this time.

More than one-a-day service on LD routes makes good sense to me

I recall hearing Paul Reistrup, when he was Amtrak president, saying that all routes should have service at least twice daily.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:

JoeBas wrote:

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:I was riding a SEPTA train today when I saw one of the maps on the train. It had "Amtrak to Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, CHICAGO" (Chicago wasn't in caps but you get the point). I would've taken a picture but the battery on my phone had died. The map on SEPTA's website only has Harrisburg and Pittsburgh listed (sigh!)

You can take Amtrak to Chicago. On the Cardinal.

1. Almost 27 hours!

2. Philadelphia can take the Cardinal to Chicago. Harrisburg can't. Lancaster can't. About ten cities between Pittsburgh and Philly can't. The Broadway Limited wasn't just a Philly to Chicago train, it was the rest of Pennsylvania to Chicago train. And Pittsburgh's hours on the BL/TR were way better than the current CL times. Who wants to get in at 5:05am?

The Cardinal is not a legitimate train from Chicago to Philly, New Jersey, Baltimore, Washington, or New York (especially New York or Washington). The problem isn't the train isn't daily, the problem is the train takes so damn long. To act as though these areas should accept the Cardinal as a substitute for the Broadway Limited is like saying a hamburger is a filet mignon (and we know how much people complain about the loss of the diner on the Silver Star).

Was, the SEPTA, sign, wrong? No. Even if only talking about direct one-seat service. And that's not even counting the slightly inconvenient transfer option in Pittsburgh.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:The Cardinal is not a legitimate train from Chicago to Philly, New Jersey, Baltimore, Washington, or New York (especially New York or Washington). The problem isn't the train isn't daily, the problem is the train takes so damn long. To act as though these areas should accept the Cardinal as a substitute for the Broadway Limited is like saying a hamburger is a filet mignon (and we know how much people complain about the loss of the diner on the Silver Star).

That pretty much summarizes my own point of view on the suitability of the Cardinal as a service option for WAS-NYP to CHI. At a bare minimum Amtrak should do a study of the route and see what the ridership projections would look like given contemporary ridership patterns and population figures. I think this train would come very close to covering its costs.

JoeBas wrote:

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:

JoeBas wrote:

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:I was riding a SEPTA train today when I saw one of the maps on the train. It had "Amtrak to Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, CHICAGO" (Chicago wasn't in caps but you get the point). I would've taken a picture but the battery on my phone had died. The map on SEPTA's website only has Harrisburg and Pittsburgh listed (sigh!)

You can take Amtrak to Chicago. On the Cardinal.

1. Almost 27 hours!

2. Philadelphia can take the Cardinal to Chicago. Harrisburg can't. Lancaster can't. About ten cities between Pittsburgh and Philly can't. The Broadway Limited wasn't just a Philly to Chicago train, it was the rest of Pennsylvania to Chicago train. And Pittsburgh's hours on the BL/TR were way better than the current CL times. Who wants to get in at 5:05am?

The Cardinal is not a legitimate train from Chicago to Philly, New Jersey, Baltimore, Washington, or New York (especially New York or Washington). The problem isn't the train isn't daily, the problem is the train takes so damn long. To act as though these areas should accept the Cardinal as a substitute for the Broadway Limited is like saying a hamburger is a filet mignon (and we know how much people complain about the loss of the diner on the Silver Star).

Was, the SEPTA, sign, wrong? No. Even if only talking about direct one-seat service. And that's not even counting the slightly inconvenient transfer option in Pittsburgh.

Technically yes because Chicago was listed after Harrisburg and Pittsburgh continuing off the Paoli line. If you count the Cardinal, it should be on the Wilmington/Newark, Delaware line after Baltimore and Washington. Interestingly Florida is not listed under Baltimore/Washington. I guess at the time of the sign made Chicago was a more popular destination than Florida.

You (and others) complain I keep repeating things endlessly. Well if people stop trying to argue I wouldn't have to. The Cardinal is NOT an acceptable route from PHL to CHI and the connection in PGH is NOT acceptable either. If you don't want to keep hearing me say this again and again stop trying to convince me these options are acceptable. They're not!

"You (and others) complain I keep repeating things endlessly. Well if people stop trying to argue I wouldn't have to. "

This thread was dormant for weeks, until you whined it back to the top.

"The Cardinal is NOT an acceptable route from PHL to CHI and the connection in PGH is NOT acceptable either."

Objection your honor, calls for speculation and opinion. To thousands of others, it's perfectly acceptable.

"If you don't want to keep hearing me say this again and again stop trying to convince me these options are acceptable. They're not!"

But it's so much fun!

IF the Cardinal is not acceptable from Philadelphia to Chicago they still have three alternatives from Philadelphia to Chicago; go to New York to take 49, go to Pittsburgh and take 29 or go to Washington and take 29 from there. That is a lot more than what we have in Florida. Another overnight train between Pittsgburgh and Chicago just to accomodate Philadelphia and Harrisburg etc? It makes a lot more sense to concentrate in Pennsylvania especially between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh where I think they could get good ridership. Be honest with ourselves, we don't have the long distance trains we used to have and it is very unlikely that we ever will. The Broadway is GONE!
Noel Weaver

JoeBas wrote:"You (and others) complain I keep repeating things endlessly. Well if people stop trying to argue I wouldn't have to. "

This thread was dormant for weeks, until you whined it back to the top.

"The Cardinal is NOT an acceptable route from PHL to CHI and the connection in PGH is NOT acceptable either."

Objection your honor, calls for speculation and opinion. To thousands of others, it's perfectly acceptable.

"If you don't want to keep hearing me say this again and again stop trying to convince me these options are acceptable. They're not!"

But it's so much fun!

And Joe, you're getting to be quite good at it.

Noel Weaver wrote:Another overnight train between Pittsgburgh and Chicago just to accomodate Philadelphia and Harrisburg etc? It makes a lot more sense to concentrate in Pennsylvania especially between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh where I think they could get good ridership. Be honest with ourselves, we don't have the long distance trains we used to have and it is very unlikely that we ever will. The Broadway is GONE!
Noel Weaver

In my mind the real question is should Philadelphia and parts of New Jersey have direct service to Chicago, AND, would it be worthwhile ($) for Amtrak?

In terms of long distance service we are in a unique position right now. Congress has made it clear to Amtrak that they do in fact wish to see some service restorations. This "wish" has been funded with $20,000,000 in the recently enacted FAST Act. Most of the potential for this cash appears to be around prospects for a "Gulfcoaster" serving New Orleans - Orlando. On the other hand the money does need to be spend and Amtrak has some interesting options depending on the availability of their rolling stock.

The only reason I support the reinstated Broadway Limited is because it has such obvious potential to increase ridership in Amtrak's best territory. The more service you see in the Northeast the better the case becomes for more trains elsewhere.

Literalman wrote:

More than one-a-day service on LD routes makes good sense to me

I recall hearing Paul Reistrup, when he was Amtrak president, saying that all routes should have service at least twice daily.

In a number of cases ridership more than doubled after frequencies doubled. The Lincoln Service St Louis-Chicago, the Cascades Seattle-Portland, the Piedmonts Charlotte-Raleigh, the Lynchburg-D.C. corridor when the Lynchburger was added to supplement the Crescent. California has been steadily adding frequencies to the Surfliners, the Capitol Corridors, and the San Joaquins -- and every time, ridership increases in line with capacity or better.

In the East Coast-Chicago Corridor Amtrak offers the Lake Shore Ltd NYC-CHI, the Capitol Ltd DC-CHI, the Pennsylvanian Philly-PGH-CHI, and the Cardinal NYC/DC-CHI. And not a dayum one stops in Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Cleveland, or Toledo in daylight. That's close to offering no service at all.

Let's see another frequency from any point on the East Coast-PGH-CLE-TOL-CHI with waking hours stops for the big cities in the middle. They are treated like FlyoverLand now. That's bad business, bad politics, and it's simply wrong.

And again, the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak.

The latest from All Aboard Ohio: http://allaboardohio.org/detroit-pittsb ... -campaign/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Key files:
http://allaboardohio.org/wp-content/upl ... ummary.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://allaboardohio.org/wp-content/upl ... linkup.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Proposed schedules:

NYP-PHL-CHI
43: NYP 9:52am, PHL 11:42am, HAR 1:36pm, PGH 7:05/7:30pm, CLE 10:25/10:30pm, TOL 12:45/1:15am, CHI 7:30am CT
44: CHI 10:30pm CT, TOL 4:50/5:00am, CLE 7:00/7:10am, PGH 10:05/10:30am, HAR 3:55pm, PHL 5:55pm, NYP 7:50pm

43 and 44 serve PGH and CLE at way better times than the CL does now and a PGH-CLE ride becomes way more attractive. TOL and the Michigan stops do fall into the graveyard shift.

NYP-PHL-PGH

45: NYP 1:44pm, PHL 3:35pm, HAR 5:30pm, PGH 10:59pm
42: PGH 7:00am, HAR 12:25pn, PHL 2:25pm, NYP 4:20pm

So there will once again be two dailies from NYP to PGH.

In addition, there are proposed trains PGH-CLE-TOL-Michigan-CHI that serve CLE and TOL at way better hours making travel between those cities even more desirable (and they will be in addition to 43 and 44 as well as the CL). Both these trains and 43/44 will serve Michigan cities to Toledo. AAO's proposal will also reroute 29/30 via Michigan and change the LSL schedules to give some separation between 48/49 and 43/44.

When it comes to Philly to Chicago, I'm not giving up and neither is All Aboard Ohio.

And second Pennsylvanian? Even Governor Wolf looks to be behind it (previous Post-Gazette article in this thread).