Amtrak Downeaster Discussion Thread

Cowford wrote:Where is the discussion on or even acknowledgement of the negative economic impact the train causes in Maine by encouraging Mainers to make out-of-state visits?

Well, we're happy to have them come down here and contribute to our sales tax and meals tax and hotel tax and such!

I think the question has to be how many Mainers come to Boston for a Sox game, a Bruins game, a museum visit, or whatever, who wouldn't have made the trip but for the availability of the train. A lot of the day trippers (especially sports fans) would probably have come down anyway by car. And how many Massachusetts folks help balance things by making make day trips to Portland and spend money in the Old Port because of the train? (I'm one, a couple times a year when I feel like taking a ride.) From what I've observed my guess is that the northbound number isn't trivial, at least on warm weather weekends.

But having said that, I generally agree with Mr. Cowford's point that many of NNEPRA's economic predictions seem to have been a bit, say, over-optimistic.

And how many Massachusetts folks help balance things by making make day trips to Portland and spend money in the Old Port because of the train? (I'm one, a couple times a year when I feel like taking a ride.) From what I've observed my guess is that the northbound number isn't trivial, at least on warm weather weekends.

My family counts for two trips per year. We live in Boston and I generally prefer not to drive. We do a summer day trip to OOB and have started doing a winter trip to Freeport. Granted, we're not spending more than a couple hundred dollars at a time, but it's a trip that wouldn't be made without the train.

With regard to Freeport, that one is a bit baffling. Daytrips or weekend shopping trips out of Boston on the train would appear to be very attractive. Once in Freeport, everything is walkable. I have a few ideas. 1) Advertising/promotion is not good. 2) The schedules going up aren't too bad, although the 685/695 gets in a bit late for what is not a late night town. However, going back is another story - 7:20 AM or 6:45PM (getting into BON around 10:30!). Way too early and way too late. 3) And this is the tough one - Freeport has gone pretty high-end these days, even the "outlet" stores are expensive - these are shoppers wedded to their BMWs. You might have to expand business class (which is always full on the 685) and improve the cafe "experience" or otherwise lure them out of their cars.

But these are just my own random throughts. Has anyone actually studied why FRP ridership is poor? When they extended to BRK the first thing I said to myself was - wow, a gold mine for Freeport! Wrong.

In regards to Freeport many of us here thought the same thing.

The schedule really is the problem from what I can see.

So, if the schedule is the problem with attracting FRP riders - and on the front end, from BON to BRK(FRP), it seems to be ok - will the back end -BRK(FRP)-BON- benefit when the BLF is finished and they add an additional round trip from Brunswick? Hope so; looking at the current schedule, it looks like a 4:00 PM departure from BRK that runs into a a 7:30-8:00PM return trip from BON would help flesh out the schedule. That would give you enough time to walk/shop your dogs off in Freeport and be ready to relax heading south. Is it safe to assume that there has been no (public) discourse on what the potential trip parameters will be?

That's been my thinking. Once the layover facility is completed the schedule will be optimized and likely have improved arrival and departure times. There has been some public discourse about the changes. If you look at the current schedule I think the basic assumption is that trains at the extreme ends of the schedule would be extended to Brunswick. 680/689 and 696/699 are the obvious pairs. That would get the often promised "three round trips" to Brunswick on the schedule. What caught my ear was that the improvements in Yarmouth would allow five roundtrips per day to Brunswick which would mean that the entire schedule would get extended.

Also interesting to consider that there will be an obvious opportunity for an overnight trip to Boston with an early am arrival and an early morning departure from Boston going to Maine. I think that would be a legitimately attractive option to a lot of riders, early morning New Hampshire commuters in particular. That could become a very strong source of ridership.

Setting aside the 5-round-trips possibility, my assumption has been that the "3 round trips" to Brunswick would simply reflect the natural outcome of having all 3 consists based there, leaving on their first run and returning on their last run with the 2 intermediate trips turning in Portland. Having all 5 available to run there would lead to a better schedule in terms of afternoon southbound departures, though.

I suspect schedule timing and frequency are only minor contributing factors. Travel time, lack of transport flexibility once you're there, the logistics of lugging your booty around with you all day... a question that should be asked: How many Boston area folks travel specifically to Freeport (and only to Freeport in their trip) to go shopping? Quite likely, the majority of out-of-staters visit Freeport as part of a multi-stop visit to Maine... which does not bode well for train patronage. I submit that Freeport's draw has been overrated. Outside of LL Bean, the "local" nature of the place has dwindled over time. (I have never understood why people travel sometimes thousands of miles and spend their precious vacation time shopping at... the Gap.) Consider that the Boston area has a very large outlet area 45 mins from town in Wrentham, Kittery's got the trading post and the benefit of being a lot closer to MA, the growth of e-commerce. The thought of living in, say, Cambridge and considering the prospect of having to leave my house at 8am and trudge to North Station for a day of shopping, only to get back home at 1030-11pm makes me shudder.

Very fair points to all of the above and something I've thought about before. The primary advantage of Freeport is that you can get there by train. Whether or not that makes it "worth it" in of itself is debatable.

Cowford's comments are well-taken. Freeport used to be an interesting place at one time, with a lot of unique shops. I went there frequently by car before the DE came along, and would have loved taking the train. But now there is an LLBean so-called outlet store everywhere it seems (where the prices are merely very high as opposed to preposterous). The "buy local" campaign seems to have skipped Freeport, as it is now mostly stores you could find in any (expensive) mall. Their main parking lot, visible as the train goes by, is packed on weekends. so all these changes don't seem to have hurt business.

Cowford wrote:The thought of living in, say, Cambridge and considering the prospect of having to leave my house at 8am and trudge to North Station for a day of shopping, only to get back home at 1030-11pm makes me shudder.

Why anyone devotes precious vacation time to shopping escapes me. But then, I guess there are folks out there who think of going to the Dentist as fun.

But they are out there; I learned in that the past that airlines allocate additional weight allowance for return flights from vacation areas just to accommodate the "tourist junk" people think they simply must have.

Funny how I for one think that I'm not spending any vacation time on an activity I consider a chore.

Cowford wrote:I suspect schedule timing and frequency are only minor contributing factors. Travel time, lack of transport flexibility once you're there, the logistics of lugging your booty around with you all day... a question that should be asked: How many Boston area folks travel specifically to Freeport (and only to Freeport in their trip) to go shopping? Quite likely, the majority of out-of-staters visit Freeport as part of a multi-stop visit to Maine... which does not bode well for train patronage. I submit that Freeport's draw has been overrated. Outside of LL Bean, the "local" nature of the place has dwindled over time. (I have never understood why people travel sometimes thousands of miles and spend their precious vacation time shopping at... the Gap.) Consider that the Boston area has a very large outlet area 45 mins from town in Wrentham, Kittery's got the trading post and the benefit of being a lot closer to MA, the growth of e-commerce. The thought of living in, say, Cambridge and considering the prospect of having to leave my house at 8am and trudge to North Station for a day of shopping, only to get back home at 1030-11pm makes me shudder.

In my experience a great many folk choose to spend the day at Freeport, and only Freeport. Is it a majority? I would say no, but I bet it is in the 25 - 50% range.
The schedule has hampered us in the past, but we still go, and we will go sometime in the next two weeks, because they do Christmas really well there.

Lack of transport flex while there does not seem right, as there are hundreds of destinations within a mile of the station. IMO, the lack of frequency of service, combined with the utter absence of a concerted ad campaign directed at Boston is the problem. One will be currently addressed. Here's hoping the can put some ad muscle behind it, too

NNEPRA frequently has people at North Station promoting "The Train to Maine." I know they've got posters and other advertising there too. Do they ever run TV ads on the Boston-region stations? (I imagine that's a pretty expensive ad buy, unfortunately, and probably impossibly-expensive during election seasons.)

I haven't seen any TV ads specific to the Downeaster on Boston stations, although the generic Amtrak spots have appeared from time to time. In the past the Downeaster has been advertised in the Sunday travel section of the Boston Globe, but I haven't seen any DE newspaper ads lately, just the posters at North Station.

Well, with the snails pace of the PAR District #2 track job with all mid-day weekday trains cancelled for months
during the peak travel season, along with a tough winter with cancelled and late trains, I doubt there ]
were many MA and NH residents taking the train to spend the day in Freeport in 2015. Let's hope 2016
will be better.