Maine Central Steam Locomotive #470 Discussion

Not trying to be negative, but now you have drilled a bunch of holes in antique journal boxes that were designed to hold oil, how will they retain the oil? Once a hole is drilled, there is always a chance for leaks, no matter how it is plugged. And if that leak were to happen while in motion and not spotted until the next stop, the damage may have already been done. Why not get one of the hand held vacuum pump and suck the water out, replacing it with oil?

The holes will be plugged while she retains her friction bearings. Don't forget we will be doing a complete (minus the drivers) roller bearing conversion. The journal boxes will only serve a cosmetic purpose after that

Mr O'kefe, I have the utmost respect for you and your knowledge and experience, but...
...methinks you spoke a bit to quickly, sir:

gokeefe wrote: [*]When restored #470 will be the only operating main line steam engine of any historic Class I railroad with tracks in New England or New York.

CP, CN and GT all have or had lines running through NY and or NE. There are examples of steam from all 3 either operating, recently operated or stored serviceable awaiting operation.
I'm pretty sure that there are examples of all 3 rr's mainline steam either operating now, recently, or stored or under restoration for return to service sometime soon.
Now, there's no guarantee that any of the above will be operating when the 470 rolls out, but there's no guarantee that any of them won't.
THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, 470 will still be plenty unique when it does run.

Cosmo wrote:Mr O'kefe, I have the utmost respect for you and your knowledge and experience, but...
...methinks you spoke a bit to quickly, sir:

gokeefe wrote: [*]When restored #470 will be the only operating main line steam engine of any historic Class I railroad with tracks in New England or New York.

CP, CN and GT all have or had lines running through NY and or NE. There are examples of steam from all 3 either operating, recently operated or stored serviceable awaiting operation.
I'm pretty sure that there are examples of all 3 rr's mainline steam either operating now, recently, or stored or under restoration for return to service sometime soon.
Now, there's no guarantee that any of the above will be operating when the 470 rolls out, but there's no guarantee that any of them won't.
THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, 470 will still be plenty unique when it does run.

Cosmo,

I went back and checked a little more carefully and you are in fact correct. The Age of Steam Roundhouse in OH has a CPR Pacific (#1293) that is operational. There is also the well known #2816 Hudson class in addition to several other smaller examples in Canada.

The Strasburg Railroad in PA has a CNR Mogul class (#89) and with its sister #96 awaiting possible restoration at the Age of Steam Roundhouse in OH. There are also two mainline CNR steam engines operational in Canada, one in Alberta, a ten wheeler (4-6-0) #1392 and the other a consolidation (2-8-0) in British Columbia at the Kamloops Heritage Railway.

Digging into things a little further I was unable to find any main line engines operational from the following: PRR, B&O, NYC (incl. B&A), NH (NYNH&H), B&M (one restoration underway at Steamtown...).

So we might be able to say that #470 will be the only operating main line locomotive of an American Class I Railroad with tracks in New York or New England. When you think of just how many examples that would include (NYC Hudsons, PRR etc. etc.) that's a pretty impressive list. I'm just happy that #470 is such a fine example of steam power that was used in Maine and furthermore that it was the finest steam engine the MEC ever operated.

No doubt a great candidate to be the "Mascot of Maine".

Oh yes, it will be impressive any way you slice it.
In my own search, I happened to notice that Steamtown has pushed the 3713 to it's front burner. They want it to be their next mainline excursion engine, which is an awesomeness all of it's own.
I must muse out loud how cool it would be to see the two locomotives together someplace (railfair 2020?) as it is looking more and more possible they may both be operational at the same time.

Keefe and Cosmo (sounds like a Las Vegas comedy act):

New England Steam and the 3713 people have talked about their projects, and shared updates, but there is no active plan to bring the two together. Let's bear in mind, these are two entirely separate companies, two entirely separate locomotives, and only one is to be focused in it's home stomping grounds, and that's 470. Bringing the two into North Station one day would be an amazing experience, but I don't see it happening for years to come. For the record, 470 remains the largest steam locomotive in New England. It is destined to run regularly on two former Maine Central branch lines, but will run anywhere it is requested and sanctioned by a host railroad.

I believe CPR 1246 in Connecticut, might be the runner up in size. I want to see that loco rebuilt for running as well. Where the "New Haven" Mikado falls, I don't know, but probably third. A couple of important mentions would be CNR 6213 in Toronto and CNR 6167, beautifully restored in Guelph. CNR 6218 is a weathered rust bucket in Ft. Erie, which is notable as it was the final CNR steam loco to run for the railroad into the Diesel age, and it ran in New England. CNR 6060 is in Alberta indefinitely. CPR 2816 remains in storage, operable but unoperated.

Besides the notoriety of size and heritage, MEC 470 has been a poster-child for neglected American park locomotives. Today it is the poster-child for grass roots organizations, sponsored by a positive fan based and careful preparation. I don't mean to be self-congratulatory, but we mean business, and we are going about it methodically. Lots of people want us to go faster, but will do this correctly, so not one dollar will be wasted.

New England Steam is starting its mailing funding crusade. Many of you will be receiving our "Now Boarding..", six page, three fold, color brochure in the mail. Donations will be used to further the relocation project and money remaining in the coffers will go directly into the beginning of the rebuild.

As we prepare for the move, we are lubricating and loosening the locomotive. When everything is sign, sealed, and date targeted, we'll reach out for membership volunteers.

We continue to write and submit grants, and look to "train people" who will use their gifts to have 470 running well before her centennial, in 2024. What a party that will be!

Mikejf wrote:Once a hole is drilled, there is always a chance for leaks, no matter how it is plugged. And if that leak were to happen while in motion and not spotted until the next stop, the damage may have already been done.

Mike,

You make an interesting point. I would imagine that "all will be well" if the plugs were spot welded into place. Your thoughts?

RGlueck wrote:For the record, 470 remains the largest steam locomotive in New England.

Wow...I had no idea this was the case!

Another look at the steamlocomotives.com database also shows that #470 would be the only operational Pacific class (4-6-2) locomotive in the Eastern United States and the only operating Pacific Class locomotive of the Eastern Class Is (I exclude CPR in this case).

One of my points in bringing up this discussion is to point out how remarkable and unique this engine will be. Truly a national attraction in of itself to see this engine operating at all.

It will be very hard indeed to find any "comparables" operating anywhere close to New England or New York. Even the CPR unit in OH isn't regularly scheduled.

Here are some data on Dick's comment about #470's size and specifications relative to other all other operational Pacifics:

• Railroad #, Type, Engine Weight, Driver Diameter, Tractive Effort
• MEC #470, Pacific, 260,900, 73'', 36,619
• SP #2472, Pacific, 300,000, 73'', 45,850
• ATSF #3415, Pacific, 352,500, 79'', 42,200
• CPR #1293, Pacific, 234,000, 70'', 34,000
• GM&N #425, Pacific, Unknown, 69'', 35,156

CNR #5588 (Pacific, Unknown, 73'', 33,630) is a candidate for restoration but is not operational at present. Although "middle of the pack" for this particular lot its worth remembering that the Western engines were designed to haul trains over the Sierra Nevada grades or over very long distances across the desert Southwest.

Mike,
Just to clarify, I drilled 2 holes, not a "bunch of holes" and it was in the trailer axle boxes. The tops of the journal boxes are compromised and even if we did suck out the water with a vacuum pump, it would just fill up again. The next step is to jack the journal box, clean the journal as best as we can and grease the journal bearing and journal until we can do something more permanent.

Leverett Fernald

Thank you Leverett. The way it was posted it did not say how many were drilled, so I went with all were and said "a bunch" to cover that. Peter also answered and eliminated my concern. Thanks for the updates, and will continue to look forward to more.

Mike

gokeefe wrote:Here are some data on Dick's comment about #470's size and specifications relative to other all other operational Pacifics:

• Railroad #, Type, Engine Weight, Driver Diameter, Tractive Effort
• MEC #470, Pacific, 260,900, 73'', 36,619
• SP #2472, Pacific, 300,000, 73'', 45,850
• ATSF #3415, Pacific, 352,500, 79'', 42,200
• CPR #1293, Pacific, 234,000, 70'', 34,000
• GM&N #425, Pacific, Unknown, 69'', 35,156

CNR #5588 (Pacific, Unknown, 73'', 33,630) is a candidate for restoration but is not operational at present. Although "middle of the pack" for this particular lot its worth remembering that the Western engines were designed to haul trains over the Sierra Nevada grades or over very long distances across the desert Southwest.

Regardless, 470 isn't that bad... It's a matter of comparison between other similarly sized engines in the Northeast with readily available data. So, using the same format;
MEC 470, 4-6-2, 260,900, 73", 36,619
CN 7470, 0-6-0, 174,000, 51", 36,703
VRR 97, 2-8-0, 141,000, 48", 29,900
BR&W 60, 2-8-0, 141,000, 51", 31,290
A&A 18, 2-8-0, 111,500, 50", 28,400
N&W 475, 4-8-0, 167,500, 56", 40,163
GWR 90, 2-10-0, 190,000, 56", 48,000

Looking at these engines, 470 is easily within the top 4, but has the largest drivers, which equates to better speeds. By far, 7470 is easily the most flexible, but there's no way it can easily operate over 20mph. While some of these engines have operated on the mainline in the past (no. 90 did do a High Iron Company excursion way back when), 470 can easily operate at mainline speeds. Last I checked, that's a necessity with operation on today's rail network...

Dylan is correct, but MEC 470 will break in and generally operate at lower speeds in daily use. If a mainline railroad was to request her for an employee special or fan trip, she'll be capable of reaching her operating speed of 50 to 70 mph. Of course, the host track will need to be rated for that kind of service, too!

It would be absolutely spectacular to see 470 operating at 50+ MPH on, for example, the Rockland Branch or the B&M, both of which are capable of such speeds thanks to Maine taxpayers.

(Yes, yes, I know this is many years away. I'm just saying it's a nice thing to think about, and that thought might inspire people to open their wallets.)

MEC407 wrote:It would be absolutely spectacular to see 470 operating at 50+ MPH on, for example, the Rockland Branch or the B&M, both of which are capable of such speeds thanks to Maine taxpayers.

(Yes, yes, I know this is many years away. I'm just saying it's a nice thing to think about, and that thought might inspire people to open their wallets.)

Not only are those lines capable of such speeds but also historically appropriate to the engine. Having had a somewhat rough ride behind #7470 a few years ago I can really appreciate the difference that large drivers as well as trailers would make to operation at speeds above 20 MPH. #7470 truly is a yard engine, really designed for switching and although certainly capable of main line work it just wasn't built for it.

Naturally this fact escapes most people who are just there for the ride or perhaps a few who would like to ride behind a working steam engine. #470 is truly a "cadillac" of its class and era. The fact that this engine was quite simply the finest steam engine ever owned and operated by the Maine Central is all that more pleasing to the historians amongst us. So many other railroads have no historical representations left of their "prime" steam power I find it just short of amazing that the Maine's Central's "jewel" survived. Union Station may never be rebuilt but #470 will run again.....