Reasonable Long Term Hopes

Pacobell73 wrote: We would respond with, ... "yes, electric can be done inexpensively, but dual mode cars are available and used on NJT, Metro-North and Amtrak.

Do you agree that there is a difference between dual mode CARS and dual mode LOCOMOTIVES with coaches and cab cars, which is what NJT Metro-North and Amtrak use? And that only NJT's example is applicable to SEPTA since Metro-North and Amtrak use 600 volt DC 3rd rail current collection that's incompatible with SEPTA's high voltage AC overhead?

jslader wrote:Any ideas why certain members of the SEPTA board don't want this line to be re-instituted?

We do not know, jslader. We have never seen so much effort used to hold back any discussion. This line inflames passions like no other, and we have never been able to explain that to our satisfaction. It goes beyond the obvious elephant in the room - the fact that there is no money. Even if the money was available, we see disproportionate opposition (hence the "pick a different line" comments). We do have some theories, all admittedly incomplete:

1) SEPTA is concerned about the status of their title - there does not appear to be either a ROW or an actual land title connecting the Reading Company to the rail line. SEPTA has a quitclaim deed only. There have been suggestions that disturbing the status quo could lead to legal challenges from neighboring landowners as to the legitimacy of SEPTA's ownership.

2) The park/environmental interests in the MontCo area of this line have substantial clout, far more than those in Quakertown or West Chester. Ditto for Abington and Bryn Athyn neighbors. That said, we do not believe the trail interests play any major role at this time, though, and are something of a passing fad that has even less of a long term funding plan than a rail line does.

3) There have been suggestions that SEPTA opposes potentially successful rail projects while promoting (or permitting discussion about) obviously unsuccessful "hobby" projects like the SVM and Lansdale-Q'town. In other words, SEPTA is opposed to any new rail, but tolerates discussion about unlikely projects. Support for this comes from the absolute disaster on the Wawa extension - the most straightforward restorations appear to be victims of the greatest administrative and budgetary sabotage efforts.

4) We have heard that the line is too similar to the existing lines and would therefore automatically be operated by BLE, which SEPTA may prefer to see marginalized. Public-private partnerships are often not allowed.

5) We have also heard that remnants of political battles or accidents from over 25 years ago still influence decisions today. The Gov. Richard Thornburg-Ed Tennyson battle, the Everybody vs. Gunn battle, the tanker explosion of 1982, etc. While long ago, it is possible some factions remain today and want to steer clear of controversial lines that shaped their careers for better or worse. As mention, SEPTA CFO Richard Burnfield's name is all over the paperwork and tariffs concerning the 1982 fire and 1983 "bustitution" efforts. He is indirectly linked to the Newtown line, past and present.

That is the best we have got. We believe if we had been aggressively promoting a train to Allentown or Bethlehem or Reading, we would have made no more progress, but we would have encountered a fraction of the resistance.

As a footnote, SEPTA spokesperson Andrew Busch was at the Janaury 10, 2010 SEPTA meeting, and said to us in the elevator, "gotta give you guys credit. No one wants to touch that 'red herring'. Hope you have your checkbooks on you today." We smiled. I personally saw him at Market East Station later that day and he said, "that $300 million Newtown project is expensive." I said, "yeah, so are those $300 million parking garages SEPTA is building." We both smiled, shook hands, and knew neither one of us were part of the decision making. But it did make for incisive casual conversation.

Pacobell73 wrote:

jslader wrote: 4) There have been suggestions that SEPTA opposes potentially successful rail projects while promoting (or permitting discussion about) obviously unsuccessful "hobby" projects like the SVM and Lansdale-Q'town. In other words, SEPTA is opposed to any new rail, but tolerates discussion about unlikely projects. Support for this comes from the absolute disaster on the Wawa extension - the most straightforward restorations appear to be victims of the greatest administrative and budgetary sabotage efforts.

...

As a footnote, SEPTA spokesperson Andrew Busch was at the Janaury 10, 2010 SEPTA meeting, and said to us in the elevator, "gotta give you guys credit. No one wants to touch that 'red herring'. Hope you have your checkbooks on you today." We smiled. I personally saw him at Market East Station later that day and he said, "that $300 million Newtown project is expensive." I said, "yeah, so are those $300 million parking garages SEPTA is building." We both smiled, shook hands, and knew neither one of us were part of the decision making. But it did make for incisive casual conversation.

Re #4 above, I've always felt this way. It's like they have no interest in seriously discussing real projects that will help the region they serve but offer forth $2B boondoggles like the SVM. But why? What possible reason would SEPTA have for opposing new rail service? Is this simply a manifestation of the Philadelphia and Pennsylvania lack of concern for the electorate? Is it because our politicians are so used to serving us poorly that they don't have any concern for making this region better and have no interest in rolling up their sleeves and making progress? Are they being paid off by Exxon Mobil or Wawa who don't want to see their gas revenues drop? It simply defies logic.

As an example, building a new train line from Lansdale to Skippack under power lines is pie in the sky. Restoring service to Pottstown, Quakertown, Newtown, West Chester, etc. - this is not pie in the sky stuff, folks. It's not. It's simply baffling. It's as if the whole restoration of rail service thing has become a form of local mysticism or urban legend or folklore. "Oh, that, it will never happen here. Not possible. Now let's talk about the Eagles."

BPP1999 wrote:Great post, PacoBell. Thanks for the information, even if it is disturbing and tragic.

Thank you kindly.

BPP1999 wrote:If Newtown is so despised by some well-connected cronies, why not take the advice mentioned in your post and focus on another line?

When it became clear that money was there and just being spent elsewhere, we expanded our scope to see exactly where the money was going. Projects page: http://www.pa-tec.org/projects.html. Our goal is to promote responsible investment in transit expansion and work with local transit organization to redirect limited transportation funding to investment in expanding rail-based transit in the Philadelphia area and other urban cores in Pennsylvania. SEPTA notoriously overprices projects compared to their counterparts so the piggy bank is emptied quickly (a point PennDOT officials concurred with at our meetings with them; PennDOT added this is one of the main reasons Harrisburg is generally not sympathic to SEPTA's financial woes and service cut threats).

We obtained numbers from DVRPC, SEPTA and other studies and saw that expansion projects are not driven by results of studies - which is used against Newtown, among other reasons - but political pull. This is very bad public policy. That is when we began to question the logic being used at DVRPC. DVRPC refused to release any numbers for projects in process; we took issue with that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_ ... Law_ruling

FYI - for those interested in the Newtown Campaign, here are a few articles from that era, most notably, an endorsement from the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers Richard Dixon and Paul Osciak: http://newtownline.pa-tec.org/documents ... sement.pdf

A Bucks-Montco debate Newtown Station: Reopen it or not? - 10.6.09
http://articles.philly.com/2009-10-06/n ... muter-rail

Bicycle Coalition's Position on SEPTA R8 Newtown Line Restoration - 10.12.09
http://blog.bicyclecoalition.org/2009/1 ... ta-r8.html

Can the Internet bring back the dead R8 Fox Chase-Newtown line? - 12.2.09
http://www.buckslocalnews.com/articles/ ... 121977.txt

Effort to reactivate Newtown rail line dominates discussion at Town Hall meeting at George School - 3.5.10
http://www.cheltenhamchamberofcitizens. ... 3-5-10.pdf

SEPTA: Reactivation of Newtown rail line a difficult prospect - 3.6.10
http://www.buckslocalnews.com/articles/ ... 857266.txt

Guest Column: Vellner's readers on track with R8 train line - 3.6.10
"A recent column here calling for restoration of the R8 Newtown commuter rail line through Huntingdon Valley and Southampton resulted in — to my pleasant surprise — overwhelming support for the initiative."
http://www.montgomerynews.com/articles/ ... 919155.txt


Lower Makefield Environmental Advisory Council - 3.10.10
http://lmt.org/lmt_wp/wp-content/upload ... _10_10.pdf

Restored train service to Southampton on Newtown Line? - 3.18.10
http://www.philadelphiaspeaks.com/forum ... -line.html

Coalition makes a pitch to restore R8 line in Wrightstown - 4.12.10
http://www.cheltenhamchamberofcitizens. ... -13-10.pdf

Newtown Borough Council hears pitch to reactivate R8 rail line - 4.20.10
http://www.buckslocalnews.com/articles/ ... 263732.txt
In March, SEPTA said it wouldn’t stand in the way of a feasibility study if both Bucks and Montgomery counties made the request. "But having said that, you do look at a difficult project in the Newtown corridor from a couple of perspectives,” said SEPTA CFO Richard Burnfield, not the least of which is the line’s infrastructure and the cost of restoring service. “Right now, there simply are not the resources,” he said. PA-Tec argues it’s less about finances and more about a philosophical disagreement. “Financially, SEPTA has a $400 million a year capital budget. We’re looking for $50 million of that for about five years to get this built. The money is there,” said Frey. “There will never be just $300 million just sitting on the table to use so it becomes a matter of priorities. “Right now they’re seeing enhancements of existing stations as their highest priority and expansion as a low priority. We disagree. We think expansion would get them new riders. Enhancements at stations don’t bring you new riders and get cars off the road.”


Newtown Township Environmental Advisory Council - 4.26.10
Dr. Annarelli moved that the EAC draft a letter of support to the County Planning Commission and County Commissioners to conduct a feasibility study on the reactivation of the R-8 line. Mr. Leck seconded and the motion passed 4-0.
http://www.twp.newtown.pa.us/commission ... 426min.htm

Newtown Borough jumps on board R8 reactivation bandwagon - 5.13.10
http://www.buckslocalnews.com/articles/ ... 330238.prt

Group seeks activation of defunct train service - Upper Moreland - 5.19.10
http://montgomerynews.com/articles/2010 ... 734158.prt

Warwick joins growing chorus supporting reactivation of Newtown rail line - 6.22.10
http://www.buckslocalnews.com/articles/ ... 345427.prt

Upper Southampton Board of Supervisors reaffirms R8 Resolution - 12.20.11
http://www.southamptonpa.com/township-g ... aspx?id=61

Planning the region's future without the public's voice - 6.25.12
http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/local/c ... de001.html

jslader wrote:Any ideas why certain members of the SEPTA board don't want this line to be re-instituted?

Yes, why is our local beer baron so bizarre when it comes to this issue? I would agree that the last thing RRD needed was another branch's operating costs if funding was serious issue, but why would Deon lay such a puzzle about it?

My personal experience with a few outspoken members of PA-TEC has not been particularly positive, but I agree that the above timeline leads to a more complete view of their efforts. I'll continue to hope their efforts pay off, but I suspect they may be more to the story than is mentioned above. (My personal thoughts, I lay no claims and certainly no proof)

With that said, I view the most significant unending hurdle to "long term hope" continues to be the PA legislative members reluctance at viewing the Philly region in a positive light. Add to that the lack of attempts to change this perception, and you have a problem that only becomes more entrenched every year. Yes, a great many PA citizens despise Philly, and vice versa; but why? And why is it still so easy to do in the state Senate/House?
I predict more funding problems down the road, just as I did when ACT44 was first implimented. It is a matter of time before we're back to cutbacks. In the meantime, I would hope SEPTA does try to expand rail via small steps and maintain what they have.

BPP1999 wrote:Great post, PacoBell. Thanks for the information, even if it is disturbing and tragic.

That being said, I have reviewed and re-reviewed PA-TEC's website, and I don't agree with everything I see there. That website takes issue with the projection of 3k new daily users on a restored Reading line. It then says "How could this be when ridership was only 690 when the line was cut?" Ok, maybe so, but what about the tens of thousands of people, most of them well-educated professionals, who live along the Route 422 corridor that weren't there 30 years ago (or even 20 years ago). Populations and demographics have changed significantly. I would think the TEC would want restored service to on-the-rebound anti-sprawl towns via an underutilized, well cared for, double-tracked line complete with gorgeous abandoned stations and large parking areas, such as those in R-Ford and P-Town.

If Newtown is so despised by some well-connected cronies, why not take the advice mentioned in your post and focus on another line?

I'd guess that Pville would generate at least that much ridership (690 ons and 690 offs) if done correctly.
I'd also think that restoration of service to bethlehem would be a game changer for SEPTA giving it a decent two way ridership and a solid endpoint destination to slightly balance out traffic and, perhaps most importantly, justify permanent "express" service. it might also have the effect of expanding support for SEPTA in the legislature beyond the traditional five county region (which itself seems to have a love hate relationship with the agency)

ChrisinAbington wrote:My personal experience with a few outspoken members of PA-TEC has not been particularly positive, but I agree that the above timeline leads to a more complete view of their efforts. I'll continue to hope their efforts pay off, but I suspect they may be more to the story than is mentioned above.

We are always interested in others interpretations. Please elaborate, including if you were in attendance at any public forums. Thank you kindly

BPP1999 wrote:I have reviewed and re-reviewed PA-TEC's website, and I don't agree with everything I see there. That website takes issue with the projection of 3k new daily users on a restored Reading line. It then says "How could this be when ridership was only 690 when the line was cut?" OK, maybe so, but what about the tens of thousands of people, most of them well-educated professionals, who live along the Route 422 corridor that weren't there 30 years ago (or even 20 years ago). Populations and demographics have changed significantly. I would think the TEC would want restored service to on-the-rebound anti-sprawl towns via an underutilized, well cared for, double-tracked line complete with gorgeous abandoned stations and large parking areas, such as those in R-Ford and P-Town.If Newtown is so despised by some well-connected cronies, why not take the advice mentioned in your post and focus on another line?

As far as Reading goes, my colleagues remind me often that population growth and transit suitability are not well correlated (I reside in Phoenixville myself). Some areas have enormous population growth - Nevada for example - but are ill-suited for public transportation, almost by design. Other areas may have more modest growth and be served efficiently by new transit options.

In fact, it is possible that some areas with low or negative population growth could have more success with a new transit project than other areas with high growth. Counterintuitive, perhaps, but see the RiverLINE: New Jersey has a much lower population growth that the U.S. as a whole does, and yet the line appears to be a success by all accounts.

More than growth, transit requires density. It requires at least one walkable endpoint OR a multi-seat ride. Finally, it requires many people generally going to the same place at the same time.

So there is some debate about which lines in the area are viable, but a general consensus that the lines closer in to the city would be the most successful, at least initially.

i remember seeing this video of pa-tec getting yelled at. this is what they got for promoting rail expansion. i wouls not have had the stomach for this verbal abuse. public servants are such slugs

http://youtu.be/kVBoRO3Nv5g?t=5m46s

and this screaming..."go screw yourself." Disgusting
http://youtu.be/kVBoRO3Nv5g?t=7m12s

Paco,

Your account about the hypocrisy of politicians and the biases in the system were definitely eye opening. I find it interesting.

Anyway, your correlation with population density and transit makes sense. However, the problem with bringing transit to densely populated areas is that the startup cost is prohibitively expensive due to the scarcity of land and the high demand for it. It would be a lot more cost effective for transit expansion to be proactive rather than reactive. The closing of the Newtown line was not a proactive decision, and neither was the building of a trail on top of it. But there is no reaction to the boost in the area's population either. The status quo of most ambitious or sensible transit projects anymore is just a "Meh" from the politicians anymore.

Perhaps maybe instead of fighting for the reactivation of the line, it would be better to first fight to change the environment that is preventing the line's reactivation. You certainly have enough experience with it, in my opinion.

-R3

R3 Passenger wrote:Paco, Your account about the hypocrisy of politicians and the biases in the system were definitely eye opening. I find it interesting.

Thank you kindly. The saying "you can't make this stuff up" lends itself to an entire book on this line.

R3 Passenger wrote:Perhaps maybe instead of fighting for the reactivation of the line, it would be better to first fight to change the environment that is preventing the line's reactivation. You certainly have enough experience with it, in my opinion.

Thank you. We did shift gears by 2011 and found a very turbulent environment that is preventing any sort of rail expansion in the region. See my previous post at Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:58 pm concerning DVRPC. Also, I just noticed pistolpete66 posts Youtube links to meetings we would rather forget, particularly the second link. Despite our broader scope, we were typecast as "The Newtown Guys."

I wonder if at any of these meetings, when told that Newtown was not a priority, if you brought up a point to the effect of "well then why NOT Quakertown? That project is MORE important than Newtown according to your DVRPC plans and yet there hasn't been any expansion of rail since 1985".

I think that if you changed tack, with as much fervor, toward a project that they admit needs doing yet has gone absolutely nowhere for 30+ years, while playing devils advocate with respect to the "pick a different line" stance, you would have a better beachhead for making a case for the institutional problems you're trying to shed light on after those discussions inevitably go nowhere also.

"You asked us to champion a different line, we did, and still nothing happens. What are we supposed to think?"

What about reasonable long-term hopes for rail expansion within the city? It's true that Roosevelt Blvd subway will cost billions upon billions of dollars to construct (especially if it's entirely underground and connects to an extended Frankford el). But are there any non-bus rapid transit proposals within Philadelphia that are more within financial reach that might be worth considering?

Last i heard ,2011, was that the BLVD Subway/el would cost a billion dollars and move 100,000 people on day one (the Broad st line would be able to handle it easy). There was no money so now SEPTA/City? is looking at BRT and it will probably lead to nothing. Personally it would be my number one transit expansion and an EL would be fine on those large medians.