Official Naugatuck Railroad thread (NAUG/RMNE)

Great idea!

Only two questions have to be answered first.

1. Why

2. Who is going to pay for the service.

"grubs again .... gumble, gumble, gumble"
Marx/Lennon album - Firesign Theatre circa 1970

fl9m2004 wrote:This is just a guess but if they meaning Naugatuck railroad keeps putting advertisements in newspapers ridership if advertised will probably be really good
And also the reverse commuting from Torrington to Waterbury to a commuter train for New York City
I imagine the state would once it's done with the commuter line

Riding Waterbury to Grand Central is miserably long enough as it is, personally, If I had the option to ride from Torrington (or God forbid East Litchfield was rebuilt - that's walking distance from my house) I wouldn't. I would rather suck it up and drive to Waterbury/Fairfield/Brewster as I do now. As for reverse commuting - Torrington's economy SUCKS. It's not a jobs center, and neither is Waterbury for the sake of argument. Route 8 isn't the problem, especially north of Waterbury. Most days I can make it from my house to the mixmaster in roughly 20 minutes.

The only consistent ridership you would have is weekenders - MAYBE. Even that's a bit of a crapshoot as they all seem to congregate in Litchfield, Washington, Kent, etc.

Pretty sure Naugy's not going the Housy route and claim to restore passenger service. However, if they want to advertise their excursion trains, let them

In the present scheme Metro North service between Waterbury and New York will not match the service that was provided by the New Haven between New York and Waterbury and beyond to Winsted on trains 153 and 158. Both of these trains usually had 8600 class SS coaches that ran through between Winsted and New York. Having said that, the other trains were a mixed bag, mostly Budd RDC cars which required a change at Bridgeport. It all depended on the train tht the Naugy connected with at Bridgeport. Some of them made many stops and some of them made maybe South Norwalk and Stamford. Years ago the Waterbury trains also connected with trains to Penn Station and Washington and a good number of travelers out of Waterbury exercised this option. The Winsted - Waterbury portion of this trip has always had the lowest passenger patronage or probably any line of the New Haven Railroad. After the train to Winsted came off in 1958 a bus connection was provided from Waterbury to Winsted and even the bus couldn't make it financially. Today Route 8 is a superb piece of road, maybe one of the best in Connecticut and a bus could make it between Waterbury and Winsted in about half the time that a train could have. Of course the tracks are long gone between Torrington and Winsted and at this point it would make absolutely no sense to try to bring back regularly scheduled passenger service between Waterbury and Torrington. Today bus service in Torrington does not come close to the bus service that was available back in the 1950's. I doubt if the 1950's will return when it comes to available bus services in Torrington either. Back in the 50's Torrington even had a bus terminal right in the center of town with an agent all day, every day and buses to a lot of different points too.
Noel Weaver

And - it seems that one is making the ass-u-me-tion of having an intact (state owned) right of way between Torrington and Winsted.

NOT!

Problems with a Torrington extension are:

1) 8 is a breeze to drive between Winsted and Waterbury. It's only south of there where the traffic gets bad and the substandard parts of the expressway get accident prone.

2) Torrington is much more of an east-west commuter market than the Waterbury-south towns that never lost their NYC-oriented rail service. And there unfortunately is no way to do a Hartford-Torrington train without a reverse move in Waterbury. Even if they managed to wye it across Thomaston Ave. through some of these parking lots for a direct, missing Waterbury kills the potential ridership.


I think an express bus + reasonably dense Waterbury-Hartford CR + increased MNRR frequencies would really hit the sweet spot for attracting commuters from that area and relieving I-84 traffic. But I can't see this line going real-deal commuter rail until some >2030 era that's out-of-range for reliably predicting commute patterns/demand. The lack of an E-W one-seat is too problematic, and N-S demand north of Waterbury isn't enough to float the expense and running time alone. CDOT has too many other higher-upside corridors to tap first: NHHS full scale-up, SLE New London-Westerly + RIDOT transfer, MNRR Danbury-New Milford, Hartford-Waterbury, Hartford-Manchester shuttle, Bradley Airport shuttle, etc.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Problems with a Torrington extension are:

1) 8 is a breeze to drive between Winsted and Waterbury. It's only south of there where the traffic gets bad and the substandard parts of the expressway get accident prone.

2) Torrington is much more of an east-west commuter market than the Waterbury-south towns that never lost their NYC-oriented rail service. And there unfortunately is no way to do a Hartford-Torrington train without a reverse move in Waterbury. Even if they managed to wye it across Thomaston Ave. through some of these parking lots for a direct, missing Waterbury kills the potential ridership.


I think an express bus + reasonably dense Waterbury-Hartford CR + increased MNRR frequencies would really hit the sweet spot for attracting commuters from that area and relieving I-84 traffic. But I can't see this line going real-deal commuter rail until some >2030 era that's out-of-range for reliably predicting commute patterns/demand. The lack of an E-W one-seat is too problematic, and N-S demand north of Waterbury isn't enough to float the expense and running time alone. CDOT has too many other higher-upside corridors to tap first: NHHS full scale-up, SLE New London-Westerly + RIDOT transfer, MNRR Danbury-New Milford, Hartford-Waterbury, Hartford-Manchester shuttle, Bradley Airport shuttle, etc.

North, south, east or west I am not convinced that there is much of a commuter market in any direction in or out of Torrington. I guess you could call it some sort of a bedroom community but to what? Waterbury, New Haven, Bridgeport or Hartford or something in between? There isn't even a decent road between Torrington and Hartford so I don't think there is much need for anything more that there already is and the last I knew that was a couple o bus trips a day in daytime hours five days a week for commuters. As I have said a number of times previously the problem with any commuter rail in or out of Hartford is that a lot of the employers are not close to the railroad and a good number of them are not even within the city limits of Hartford. As much as I would love to be able to get to my HOME TOWN by rail, it is never again likely to happen, it simply is not needed there. Route 8 can handle any express bus service between Winsted, Torrington and Thomaston and the railroad station in Waterbury where the passengers could transfer to a train to continue their trips and this is probably as much as one could expect. It is too bad that there is little to no bus service between Torrington and Waterbury on any sort of a regular basis at least that I am aware of at this time.
Noel Weaver

Not to drag this thread TOTALLY off topic - but Noel, about all Torrington has these days is the Candystriper buses, and the aforementioned commuter buses to Hartford run by Kelley. It's quite sad, really.

runningwithscalpels wrote:Not to drag this thread TOTALLY off topic - but Noel, about all Torrington has these days is the Candystriper buses, and the aforementioned commuter buses to Hartford run by Kelley. It's quite sad, really.

I agree it is sad in a city of roughly 30,000 population in a state that has a lot of public transportation and yet Torrington does not share in much of it. I think a feeder bus from a park and ride lot in Torrington, East Litchfield and Thomaston to the railroad station in Waterbury to connect with all trains, it could probably be handled by one bus and one or two drivers.
Noel Weaver

Bear in mind that the curves that make up 80+% of the line north of Waterbury are speed-restrictors; even in New Haven passenger train days there were many 35 mph restrictions on those curves.

The area mentioned by "F-Line" as a possible wye connection between the Highland and the Naugy is not only full of buildings, but also has some major vertical separation. The Highland is climbing the grade to Terryville Tunnel once past the Highland Jct switch, while the Naugy drops north down 2.2 % from Highland Jct towards Watertown Jct. That's the steepest hill on the 19.6 miles north from Highland Jct. all the way to Torrington.

Now, if the CNE was still intact east from Winsted to Hartford....

In 1957 there were 15 curves with 35 MPH or less. It was as low as 20 at East Litchfield and 6 of these curves were 30 as well. It is no wonder that it took so long to do this line. Of course this was from a 1957 timetable running on the old line I think the new route over the dam might have been a little bit better but not much and the old line had the curves elevated for passenger trains but the new line did not, The very next timetable after the last passenger train in December, 1958 the speed between Highland Junction and Winsted had been reduced to 30 MPH for all trains. I don't have the bulletin order when the new line was put in to service but I do have a newspaper clipping covering it here somewhere. HFM do you have a straight face bringing up the CNE out of Winsted to Hartford, I have a 1917 timetable in front of me and there was a wide varience in running times between Winsted and Hartford from 1 hour and 9 minutes to as long as 1 hour and 47 minutes. I susepct it was even slower after they took off the trains out of Hartford and began running them out of Plainville via Farmington and Unionville in their last years of operation. In that period most likely a change at Plainville was necessary on most if not all of the trains between Winsted and Hartford. I know the roads are about the same as the ones between Torrington and Hartford but I suspect today's travel is a lot faster than it was by train in 1917.
There is a lot of interesting information in my old timetables and I enjoy looking them over from time to time. Don't fear, the ones I use the most for questions and comments I have made printed copies of and the originals are safely stored away and wrapped in plastic as well.
Noel Weaver

Noel, no straight face, that's why the smiley one at the end of that post! Just indulging in a little leg-pulling, eh?

The curve just south of East Litchfield (at the little rock cut) is just over 9 degrees-- that is S-H-A-R-P. The "new line" has plenty of curves as well, some of them rather sharp also (but not quite that bad). North of Waterbury, there are few if any tangents longer than 1000-1500 feet on either the "new line" or the original route.

YUP, the only section of the line between Waterbury and Winsted where a train could make any sort of a decent run was east (timetable direction) of Torrington through Burrville. There was "sinkhole curve" but after that the passenger trains could really move out if necessary. I still remember the many, many rides on the Budd Car between Waterbury and Winsted in the evening back in 1956 and 1957, those were the days.
Noel Weaver

I remember when back in 2000 I was on an excursion that took the Waterbury branch from Bridgeport to Waterbury
It was 2 FL9's 2016-2027 we had 7 center door cars
There was a speed restriction from Highland Junction to Waterville
Don't remember the speed but the crew from the Naugatuck Railroad was really nice and a great host railroad
It was New Haven rails 2000
Sponsored by NRHS Western Connecticut Chapter

Regarding "current" operations for the NAUG, I am curious as if anyone could tell me what the situation is for motive power? I am tentatively planning a visit next Saturday and hoped to ride behind the FL-9 for power. With the reduction in the schedule for the Maine Eastern RR, the NAUG is the only best option available to catch a running FL-9 and I have never visited.

You're a little too late for riding behind the FL9 (NH 2019). It's been the regular locomotive since opening day (Memorial Day weekend), and has been replaced this past Sunday by U23B 2203.