Passenger cars on freight trains?

Now that I am again learning that Superliners have marker lights, this discussion of expansion of "Auto Train Service" initiated by Mr. Loco has new relevance.

At this time, the Chief is "Express free" (Zephyr still seems to have "one or two Reefers in consist).

I would prefer to see "overnight" markets developed rather than the end to ends. The reason is simply that, based on thirteen Auto Train trips over the years, "arewethereyetitis' rapidly sets in by noon second day. These AT passengers, or at least the Bennie-Caddy-Lex crowd that is always aboard when I am, are not fans. They are not even "train lovers' i.e. those non-fans that simply enjoy the "laid back" ambience of LD train travel. They simply are looking for an expedient means to move their auto over a monotonous, and even at times dangerous, route (last January, I can recall driving to AT from friends in Woodford, VA along I-95 when the temp was 35dg, raining, and even foggy - I was just as glad I was on AT that afternoon). They like the convenience of "loading 'er up' with extended stay belongings - something I do not think is allowed by other "you fly, we haul' auto shipping services.

For "Chief Auto Train" (love that name for the service???) I would have in mind passengers simply using line space in the class of their choice and with the auto carriers operating Fort Madison-La Junta and again Albuqurque-San Bernardino. Those would be the only segments over which the service would be offered.

The reason for Fort Madison is, as I recall, the open space around the depot to set up a ramping facility and the BNSF has switch engines to handle the chores. From a marketing perspective, it's equidistant not only from Chicago, but also St Louis and even Twin Cities. La Junta offers access to the array of Front Range resorts and attractions.

There is no point operating auto carriers over Raton if unnecessary, especially considering the locomotive assignment has now been reduced from three to two units.

San Bernardino over LA as a Western terminus simply allows equal access to all "LA Basin" destinations without having to "double back" from Downtown LA as would be the case with many.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:I would prefer to see "overnight" markets developed rather than the end to ends. The reason is simply that, based on thirteen Auto Train trips over the years, "arewethereyetitis' rapidly sets in by noon second day.

Considering that (based on the current schedule anyway, so, granted, things may have been different 20 years ago) 52/53 are to arrive at their respective destinations at 8:30, by noon, the train would be at least 3.5 hours late. With no intermediate stops by which to judge the train's timeliness, it would be quite understandable for passengers to get restless and impatient.

There is no point operating auto carriers over Raton if unnecessary, especially considering the locomotive assignment has now been reduced from three to two units.

Well, I don't think it would be an unresonable assumption that, if Amtrak were to experience some financial windfall giving them lots of money to purchase new auto carriers and institute new services, they would add the motive power necessary to pull the train along the route. Lest we forget, reducing the locomotive assignments from three to two (it was actually four at times, too) means that at some point, the assignment had to have been increased to four. No reason they couldn't do so again. But, we are getting ahead of ourselves.


The second point should be made that, by the time any of this happens (if it does at all), Raton may be as good as abandoned/downgraded.

As always, Mr. Madison, I note your informed comments with great respect.

AT Corp's Louisville-Sanford service that used The Floridian as a vehicle flopped in great part because the journey was simply too long. UENI may not have thought so, but the Type A's who normally fly or drive I believe would think to the contrary (I recall my father on a 1963 right on time California Zephyr trip: "when is this thing EVER going to get there?").

Amtrak, after a second look, decided during 1972 not to launch their own Indianapolis-Poinciana "Auto Trak" service. This was even after they had built the Florida facility "in the middle of nowhere' (I once searched for artifacts at the site).

It's been my experience that the "are we there" syndrone associated with Auto Train has more to do with the wait to receive your car once you arrive in Sanford or Lorton. Consider a typical experience:

Train arrives around 9 a.m., but you don't leave the facility till around 11 am. By the time you reach Orlando, it's almost lunch time, so you stop because you know the Florida Turnpike is a "no man's land" with nothing on it for close to 100 miles. Now it's 1 p.m., and by the time you get to the West Palm Beach area you're hitting rush hour traffic.

Same thing on the northbound. Lunch somewhere between D.C. and Baltimore (unless you can hold out for the Maryland House rest stop on I-95. Then another three hours plus to the Goethals Bridge linking New Jersey and Staten Island. Bumper-to-bumper on the Staten Island Expressway because New Yorkers don't know how to drive up hills and bumper-to-bumper on the Belt Parkway because that's just the way it is during rush hour. The result: you're don't reach home on Long Island till 6 pm or later and you are exhausted.

Hopefully driving from Flagstaff to Phoenix or La Junta to whereever would be less stressful.

This isn't a knock on Auto Train - it's a great service. It's just that traffic on I-95 (at both ends) sucks.

Seems to me that another problem with the Louisville Auto Train was the
fact that it did not offer daily service.
Without running a train on a daily basis, you still have the huge overhead
to take care of without any revenue coming in on some days and the
public can't always travel when they want to.
A lot of things may happen well into the future. Possibly an increase in
gas prices to the $4.00 or more a gallon will assist.
Noel Weaver

Fort Madison to La Junta is nowhere to nowhere. Fort Madison is too far removed from key Midwest markets (Cleveland, 577 miles; Detroit, 516 miles) for people to make an easy trip to catch the train. At the other end, La Junta leaves one 795 miles from Phoenix and 902 miles from Las Vegas versus 144 miles and 250 miles, respectively, from Flagstaff. You're talking two FULL DAYS of driving across desert for a snowbird to reach their final destination.

The trip to Flagstaff takes 31 hours from Chicago; 24 from Kansas City. It's longer than Auto Train, but the Southwestern scenery is far less monotonous. The one drawback is the current train times, 9:56 pm westbound, 6:27 am eastbound, which will necessitate an overnight stay in Flagstaff at a motel.

Even so, door-to-door travel times from the Chicago area would probably be in the 48-hour vicinity. They would probably be in the same range for travel to California. We're talking leaving on Monday and getting there on Wednesday. Can one do that on the interstate? I would imagine two nights in motels with 12-14 hours of driving per day.

Only problem, Mr Loco, that with a #3 315P CHI departure and a likely 2PM close, the Detroit folks you note would likely have to plan an overnight anyway. I believe Amtrak even offers an overnight "package" at a "high-econobrand" near Lorton (Comfort, IIRC).

I believe we both recognize that your proposal is "Auto Train Service" or auto racks placed on existing trains.

Lastly, I think "Motel" is sort of a non-term nowadays, at least amongst the major chains (low end Cendant brands included).

Travelers coming from Detroit and Cleveland gain an hour when they enter the Central Time Zone, so someone could leave Detroit around 8 am and still make a 2 pm closeout in Chicago.

Maybe motels are passe. Do they still have a Harvey House in Flagstaff?

Naughty Naughty

Guess what, on my walk (observed #5(8) #6(6) both without any Reefers)I remembered the "econobrand" owned by the French concern, Accor.

Motel 6

Their was one Reffer on Saturday on 5(6).

AmtrakFan

Back during the early 1980's Trailways tried to market an overnight package express in north Texas, using Dallas as the hub. Those were the years I did a lot of freelance exploring on unlimited-use passes and, while I was warned that the package puddle-jumper would get me to Shreveport only about 30 minutes before a regular schedule due in three hours, I opted for the trip.

The coach had been stripped of all but the first two rows of seats, and the remainder devoted to space for what turned out to be several hundred packages. We wound our way through Tyler, Longview and Marshall, via US 80 rather than I-20. My driver was an old hand, glad to entertain his company with a couple of interesting stories about how the desegregation issue had been handled some 20 years before. The first two stops both consumed over an hour, but I found it interesting to learn something about what moved in this system.

In short, it was an intiriguing overnight, but only because of the orientation of the lone passenger.

Mr. Norman
where was the "Auto Trak" in Florida?
and is it still there in any form?

To answer Mr. Colt's inquiry, Auto Trak was just one more ill-conceived venture which Amtrak once undertook. It was sort of a precursor, but obviously far less costly, to the Mail & Express initiative, or others that "never made the papers" such as a mid seventies venture that turned the Sleeping Cars system wide into troop trains.

The circa 1974 proposal was simply to offer Auto Train service under the trade name of Auto Trak between Indianapolis and Poinciana (on SR 541 near Kissimmee). The service was simply to be an Auto Carrier attached to the Floridian. Ramping facilities were built both at Indy and Poinciana, and a new station, in the best tradition of Amshack architecture, as well at Poinciana. Operations went as far to acquire auto carriers, and then the fun began. Using employees and their autos as "guinea pigs", Amtrak fast found out that they could not transport a carload of auto without damaging several en route. I'm sure the the deterioriating Penn Central track hardly helped the cause.

Auto Train by then had started its ill-fated venture offering Louisville (station near SDF)-Sanford service. It was evident they, even with their expertise in claim free handling of autos and an attractive on-board service pruduct, were not "going to make it", and Amtrak simply allowed their service to die a stillborn death. The only documentation I have that Auto Trak ever existed are National Timetables Nov 74 to Nov 75, inc. showing Poinciana as a stop replacing Kissimmee.

As an eplilogue, I once went on an archaeological expedition to Poinciana circa 1988. At that time, if you knew where to look, you could find evidence that a structure was once there, but that was all. To wrap 'er up, Auto TRain was looking for the exits from the Midwest market and found them by having the Floridian handle their cars. I understand Amtrak had a few unpaid accounts receivable on the books from that venture. The Floridian of course died during 1979, as did AT Corp during 1981.

if they want to try the market , then cheapest way would be to add autoracks to the capitol , and link it to the auto train . 2 nites on the train , it would show if people are repared to do it or not .

Getting auto carriers off the Capitol at QN Tower and over to Lorton in time for the Auto Train's 4 pm departure would be some neat trick. Shouldn't be a problem coming the other way.