Passenger cars on freight trains?

Thinking about the lack of slots for Amtrak trains, and the possible demise of LD passenger service in the next few years, I wondered if it would be possible to put passenger cars on hot intermodal freight trains. (This would be the reverse of Amtrak's recent practice.) I wonder if this could be attractive to the freight railroads: Passenger cars treated as other cars, but probably put on the front of the train right behind the engine to reduce slack action. Schedules might change frequently. Passengers would have to call or logon to a website to see if their train is delayed, much as you can do now with Amtrak, except that the pretense of to-the-minute scheduling would be abandoned. Stops would only be at crew change points.
This service would by no means as good as Amtrak, but it would at least be some kind of LD passenger service.
On a related note, can anyone tell us whether PV is (or can be) carried on freight trains now, or if it violates either some government rule or some railroad policy?

Some kind of power would have to be provided for heat, ac, and lights. Many PV cars have self-contained power--diesel generators. It's probably true that the service I'm suggesting would be slower than Amtrak, but, on the other hand, hot intermodal trains do pretty well, and the railroad has a real incentive not to delay them.
My suggestion is meant as a last resort. I'm not saying it would provide service as good as Amtrak, just that it would be better than no LD service at all. I see Amtrak as providing reservation and ticket services, and providing some kind of standard passenger cars (with either self-contained power, or a set of several cars with a power car attached for higher volume) which the freight railroads would certify and would agree to haul on their freight trains.

It might be an interesting ride, but I'm sure that the very thought of the liability issues resulting from having occupied passenger cars in mainline freights would have the freight railroad lawyers screaming No! No! No! in horror.

There was, of course, a long tradition of mixed trains in North America that still persists in a couple very remote areas of Canada. But in general, mixed trains consisted of a coach and maybe a baggage car hung on the rear of a slow branchline freight. The major exception that I can think of was the Georgia Railroad's "mainline mixed" between yards at Atlanta and Augusta, a historical curiosity that lasted well into the Amtrak era which saw one coach added to a long mainline run, similar in concept to Mr. G's proposal.

You don't want to go that route.
I rode the Georgia Railroad mixed train in 1976 from Augusta to Atlanta on a very hot Friday before the Labor Day weekend.
It was a streamlined Budd built coach but it was worse than the worst
caboose could ever be. No power, no lights, no AC, no water, no nothing
but a very uncomfortable ride. The crew took pity on us and moved us to
the caboose and that was a big improvement. You could not get up out of
your seat as the slack action in that huge freight train was unbelieveable.
We rode behind as few as 100 and as many as 145 freight cars over a
hill and dale piece of railroad on a train that was not really overpowered
with five freight engines.
It is not practical to run passenger cars in even a van train, on the head
end you can still get banged around a little bit and delays with a long van
train again can occur. These trains do not stop at locations where there
are any facilities for passengers whatsoever. These trains run on un-
certain schedules and not even every day. There are some trains that
only run a couple of days a week. They leave from yard facilities that
are off limits to the public.
I can think of a number of additional reasons that this scheme is a "no go". I will not tie up any more space here to discuss it right now.
Noel Weaver

The quaint mixed trains of yesteryear ran on branch lines where one-two dozen freight cars were the norm. Thus the slack action was minimal compared with today's 100+ car consists. These trips might have been bearable for 50 - 150 miles (2 -6 hours) but certainly cannot appeal to a traveling public when it might take 24 hours or more to cover 500 miles.

I too took the Georgia Railroad mixed around 1976. The stainless steel coach with no power was next to the engine so the slack wasn't a problem. Also, it was winter. The car was heated by a stove. At some point we stopped for lunch. The conductor told us to get some food at the nearby super market. He heated our food on the stove. I wouldn't have wanted to be on that train in the summer. As I recall, the trip took 5 hours or so; it was slower than you'd want. HOWEVER, the next leg of that trip was on the Hound through Georgia. I preferred the freight train.

My point isn't that running passenger cars on freight trains is a desirable alternative to Amtrak's current long distance passenger service. I'm saying that if LD passenger service dies, running passenger cars on freight trains would at least provide some kind of train service. In general, my experience has been that the crummiest train is generally better than the best bus.

Yes I have seen Excutive cars on Freights before so It could work.

AmtrakFan

Add to this all that Occupied Passenger cars use different couplers than freight locomotives and cars. cars and engines used in passenger service need tightlock couplers, very different than the type E and F freight coupler.

DutchRailnut wrote:Add to this all that Occupied Passenger cars use different couplers than freight locomotives and cars. cars and engines used in passenger service need tightlock couplers, very different than the type E and F freight coupler.

Don't forget the differences in air brakes. (i.e. freight 90lbs brake pipe vs passenger trains having 110lbs., as well as graduated release vs. direct release)

Union Pacific operated a couple of mixed trains up until Amtrak, including Mixed Trains 117/118 between Kansas City and Denver.(Read about it in a book on the Union Pacific.) The Passenger Cars in the consist were at the Head End.

I assume passenger cars could be equipped with freight brakes. Does the FRA mandate tight lock couplers for passenger cars? If so, when was that rule passed?

JoeG wrote:I assume passenger cars could be equipped with freight brakes. Does the FRA mandate tight lock couplers for passenger cars? If so, when was that rule passed?

Superliners (at least, perhaps most/all Amtrak equipment) already has the capability of either graduated release or direct release, depending on whether or not there are freight cars in the consist.

The Auto Train is probably a decent example of a modern-day mixed train. It is operated in direct-release braking mode and its speed is limited by the auto carriers. The auto carrier equipment always trails the passenger cars so that the locomotives can provide the HEP.

The engineers I've talked with who regularly operate the Auto Train say it takes alot of dexterity to keep the ride comfortable and safe for the passengers.

There's another good example, the auto train........I totally forgot about it.

There's another good example, the auto train........I totally forgot about it.