Pan Am Southern / Patriot Corridor Discussion

RPM2Night wrote:I find this topic interesting since I used to work for the New England Central out of White River Junction Vt. I saw on the map that the Pan Am Southern will have trackage rights on the NECR mainline up to White River Junction. Does this mean that NS will invest money into improving the NECR trackage from Palmer or Sprinfield up to White River Junction? .

NS is not going to spend any money fixing anybody elses tracks. They have a limited scope as to what they are going to fix in the next three years and none of what you mentioned is on it.

RPM2Night wrote:Would NS/Pan Am run their own trains up to WRJ or would they interchange with the NECR.

Pan Am will not run any trains west of Ayer at all. The only Pan Am trains going west of CPF312 will be trackage rights trains through the Hill Yard to the Worcester main line to interchange with CSX. Aside from those Worcester bound trains, any train passing CPF312 is in effect an interchange train with Pan Am Southern. There is a new AEI reader at CPF312 (actually installed almost 5 months ago) that will convert the trains over in the computer system.

And as people have already asked regarding NS supplying power for the PAS, the answer is NO. Aside from the Coal train power they have always provided, NS will not be giving any engines to the PAS. Pan Am will use their own as well as lease engines (Such as the 4 NS GP38's and the new Helm power)

And as people have already asked regarding NS supplying power for the PAS, the answer is NO. Aside from the Coal train power they have always provided, NS will not be giving any engines to the PAS. Pan Am will use their own as well as lease engines (Such as the 4 NS GP38's and the new Helm power)

I'm not trying to split hairs here but would it not be possible for NS/PAS power to run-through on priority intermodal/auto trains so as to not congest the limited track capacity at Mohawk/Mechanicville with with engine swapping?

This is an interesting development...

Can anyone tell me what became of the rumors that CSX wants to sell off their line to Boston? I recall something about them wanting to stop at Worcester, which would be difficult to imagine them doing in light of this Patriot Corridor deal. It seems that CSX is dis-investing in New England, while NS is only increasing their presence.

My biggest fear regarding the Patriot Corridor is what will happen to CSX lines in New York, particularly the River Line. If CSX now faces increased competition from NS in the northeast (and rightly so), and as NS clobbers CSX into oblivion in New England (as I predict), CSX will only see reduced profit margins on their lines in New York. This, of course, could translate into CSX investing less money into their physical plant and track improvements in New York, overall making rail service in the region less competitive with the trucking industry.

Does anyone else share these concerns?

NYCS- Have no fear! The scenarios you laid out won't happen, at least not in your lifetime!!! The Patriot Corridor is just another iteration in the life of the D&H/B&M gateway into New England which serves as a secondary competitor to the Water Level Route now owned by CSX.
The NS and its predecessors have always had an interest in this route
because its their way to participate in New England traffic. It seems that in order for NS to protect and build upon its presence in New England, there was no choice but to intervene with Pan Am as the route needs lots of work and Pan Am, for a whole host of reasons, doesn't have the resources or wherewithal to make the necessary investments. Undoubtedly, NS will build traffic, some at the expense of CSX who is strategically raising rates to improve financial performance, but there are challenges which, I believe, will give CSX the edge long term. First, the water level route has the best infrastructure and lowest mileage, and, CSX's B&A lends itself to more easily increase clearances to 20'6" which is strategically important for intermodal, and, to some degree, auto traffic.
I don't think CSX is going to take this lying down and I do believe that they have the competitive advantage if they don't mess it up.
As for the River Line, well that's CSX's franchise into NY/NJ and they've
already been competing there with NS since the CR breakup. Lastly,
the state of MA owns the Framingham-Boston portion of the B&A already and is negotiating with CSX to buy an additional 22 miles into Worcester not because CSX wants out, but because the state wants expanded commuter service. Check out the MBTA Operations forum for some threads about the contentious negotiations. So, rest easy!

johnpbarlow wrote: I'm not trying to split hairs here but would it not be possible for NS/PAS power to run-through on priority intermodal/auto trains so as to not congest the limited track capacity at Mohawk/Mechanicville with with engine swapping?

I am sure that scenario is likley. Once the speeds are up and more of these super high priority trains come around, NS power on them would not be a surprise. Both for the reason you said and for reliability reasons. But as for regular manifest trains, yard power, locals and any train destined to go beyond Ayer, NS will not be supplying power.

CN9634 wrote:

cpf354 wrote:I know it's fun to speculate about all this, but sometimes you have to say "whoaaa" and take a deep breath and pay attention what they say they're actually doing, and not read anything else into it. What's obvious is that NS is interested in putting money into Pan Am west of Ayer. They say they are hopeful to grow intermodal, auto, and shortline connections. Beyond that, there's no indication that they are interested in the rest of the system. It's possible that Pan Am put the whole railroad on the table for a joint venture, but NS didn't want to commit to it. NS has to answer to it's stockholders. Anything else mentioned here as speculation is possible, but it isn't what's happening now.

Oh come now can't a young guy dream? I missed the "glory days" of the B&M so I can only hope for my own glory days.

Sure you can! But...when were the glory days? I would say the B&M peaked in the post war years of the late 40's. Us young fans had big hopes and dreams when Guilford came along and put together the MEC/B&M/D&H system in the early 80's, and looked what happened. A wait and see approach usually is best. The one major consideration is that for now, nothing will change operationally on PAS; it will look the same to us fans. What will change is improvements in the physical plant, but since it hasn't been determined how much and on what the money will be spent on, there's no way to tell right now how the spending would affect operations. It's all guess work right now. I don't think it's a slam dunk, for example, that they'll restore double track in as many places on the Freight Main as some might think. My impression is that NS itself is somewhat frugal. I would think that by rehabbing single iron alone you can improve capacity to accommodate the traffic levels that might realistically be expected in the future. There are some long sections of double track that were recently upgraded to Rule 261 operation(from my username to Tyter and Erving to Montague) that I don't understand the need for now, or in the future, that could actually be cut back. Right now the double track sections are used mostly to park outlawed trains.

NV290 wrote:And as people have already asked regarding NS supplying power for the PAS, the answer is NO. Aside from the Coal train power they have always provided, NS will not be giving any engines to the PAS. Pan Am will use their own as well as lease engines (Such as the 4 NS GP38's and the new Helm power)

In your opinion, what would the $65 million worth of "properties" that will be transfered from NS to PAS entail? It seems to me the only thing they can give is locomotives (13 @ $5 million?). The signal system and track repairs would both fall under capital, not properties.

Hoopyfrood wrote:
[tangent]
As a slight aside, if they are planning on bringing the speeds from Fitchburg west up to better levels could that mean a possible revival of the Gardner MBTA run as the MBTA won't have to spend the money to upgrade the track?
[/tangent]

On that note, a thought from the lunatic fringe; with the presumed promise of improved track conditions and speed, why not lobby Amtrak to move the Lake Shore Limited over to North station and run it out the Fitchburg to Albany? Less congestion, easier grades, possibly a more receptive management to deal with, equals a better OTP. Maybe even more riders?

truman wrote:

Hoopyfrood wrote:
[tangent]
As a slight aside, if they are planning on bringing the speeds from Fitchburg west up to better levels could that mean a possible revival of the Gardner MBTA run as the MBTA won't have to spend the money to upgrade the track?
[/tangent]

On that note, a thought from the lunatic fringe; with the presumed promise of improved track conditions and speed, why not lobby Amtrak to move the Lake Shore Limited over to North station and run it out the Fitchburg to Albany? Less congestion, easier grades, possibly a more receptive management to deal with, equals a better OTP. Maybe even more riders?

Well for one thing, it goes to Mechanicville, about 20 miles north, not Albany, and for another, the cities are smaller (Fitchburg vs Worcester, Greenfield vs. Springfield, North Adams vs. Pittsfield). It was never a prime passenger route even in the best of times, and quickly lost it's passenger service west of Fitchburg between 1958 and 1960. Not gonna happen. More likely would be commuter rail back to Gardner-maybe.

If you look at the LSL performance on the B&A you will see that it does very well here. The OTP for the westbound is at it's highest between Boston and Albany and the eastbound will make up time.

NV290 wrote:And as people have already asked regarding NS supplying power for the PAS, the answer is NO. Aside from the Coal train power they have always provided, NS will not be giving any engines to the PAS. Pan Am will use their own as well as lease engines (Such as the 4 NS GP38's and the new Helm power)

There is no way in hell this will be the case... the ST doesn't have enough power as it is now to run the current trains. Do you think the NS is going to dump all that money into the physical plant and rely on the ST power to move the freight? I don't think so...

This is about improved freight service, not passenger trains. However as soon as this was announced the first thoughts on some people's minds was re-routing the Vermonter back to the Conn River south of E. Northfield! Now we're getting even more fanciful by even including the LSL in the picture? What's more interesting is what the joint venture could hopefully end up doing to improve and expand freight service. One possibility is the adoption on the Patriot Corridor of a program NS is launching in New York state to offer "single line" short line service there . The NY program should hopefully attract short haul bussiness that for years has been neglected by the railroads, and if successful and expanded to PAS, could have a decent chance to grow traffic in New England (where short haul is dominant), thus we could see more trains, or at least longer ones. Then there is the prospect of more intermodal should PAS expand the Ayer terminal, and set up the one in Mechanicville. Auto traffic could make a comeback through the Hoosac should PAS open a new auto unloading facility in Ayer. NS is starting something called "Uni-Level" service with 55 enclosed cars designed to transport large vehicles, such as Rv's and delivery trucks. Perhaps this service will be part of any new auto terminal. The actual, real, possibilities are what we should be thinking about here, not dreams of passenger train expansion.

QB 52.32 wrote:Undoubtedly, NS will build traffic, some at the expense of CSX who is strategically raising rates to improve financial performance, but there are challenges which, I believe, will give CSX the edge long term. First, the water level route has the best infrastructure and lowest mileage, and, CSX's B&A lends itself to more easily increase clearances to 20'6" which is strategically important for intermodal, and, to some degree, auto traffic.

Following up with the impact of the Patriot Corridor on CSX, ags has posted a link to the Worcester Business Journal on the MBTA Rail Operations forum's MBTA Purchase of CSX Tracks thread that reports that Massachusetts, as part of the negotiations to purchase the Framingham-Worcester portion of the B&A, would fund $40m. to clear the B&A's state-owned overhead bridges (to 20'6") from the NY state line to Westborough.

Only a matter of time before the Vermonter comes back to the B&M. This was in the works supposedly even before this new announcement.

cpf354 wrote:This is about improved freight service, not passenger trains. However as soon as this was announced the first thoughts on some people's minds was re-routing the Vermonter back to the Conn River south of E. Northfield! Now we're getting even more fanciful by even including the LSL in the picture? What's more interesting is what the joint venture could hopefully end up doing to improve and expand freight service. One possibility is the adoption on the Patriot Corridor of a program NS is launching in New York state to offer "single line" short line service there . The NY program should hopefully attract short haul bussiness that for years has been neglected by the railroads, and if successful and expanded to PAS, could have a decent chance to grow traffic in New England (where short haul is dominant), thus we could see more trains, or at least longer ones. Then there is the prospect of more intermodal should PAS expand the Ayer terminal, and set up the one in Mechanicville. Auto traffic could make a comeback through the Hoosac should PAS open a new auto unloading facility in Ayer. NS is starting something called "Uni-Level" service with 55 enclosed cars designed to transport large vehicles, such as Rv's and delivery trucks. Perhaps this service will be part of any new auto terminal. The actual, real, possibilities are what we should be thinking about here, not dreams of passenger train expansion.

I agree that the freight prospects of the Patriot Corridor are much more important, and much more exciting, than any changes in passenger service.