North South Rail Link

You can take Acela from NY to Boston, you can take the Downeaster from
Portland, Me to Boston, you cannot move seamlessly from Portland to New York or visa versa. It defies the purpose of long distance rail service. This applies as well to east and west bound trains and all through service. Otherwise Boston is just an arrival and departure point for commuters.

Is it necessary to make the connection between the two? Absolutely, if you are going to invest large sums on one end to be part of a national rail system.

You wouldn't fly from Piitsburg to Bradley and then drive to Logan to then fly to Laguardia.

Maybe, and it's a big maybe, if this connection was made, someone might consider using Amtrak or whatever it will be called in 5 years to travel this route. Laney and the board don't get it and neither do the state dot's.

The issue is bigger than just connecting North station and South station. Boston has 3 major transport hubs -- the two rail stations and Logan airport. Connecting North and South stations isn't sufficient. To answer a previous post -- someone from Rockland or Portland might be very interested in taking the train to Boston to get to the airport given the schedules at Logan compared to Portland's airport. An integrated plan connecting the three hubs together would sell to a group larger than just railfans. To get to Logan from South station you can take a bus (Silver Line -- but still only a bus). From north station you either take a cab or a combination of either the Green or Orange line to the Blue Line (and then another bus).

If you consider the possibility that rail could serve as feeder service to long haul flights then the airport has to be connected to the rail network conveniently. Newark airport is connected to the Northeast Corridor, TF Green in Providence is connected to the rail network and someday Manchester NH may even have rail (yeah I know that one is a long shot). Now you have more possibilities of folks going to and through Boston.

Cosmo wrote:NO! The UFRR was strictly a freight service for the waterfront area between the two stations! The only passenger train EVER on the line was a FLATCAR with FOLDING CHAIRS set up to accomodate railfans on a 1-time-only excursion/tour of the line.
For dates/details, see: Frank Kyper's "The Railroad That Came Out At Night," 1st or 2nd edition.
Cosmo

I believe at least part of the UFRR was used by streetcars however. Of course the Atlantic Avenue Elevated provided direct North Station-South Station service.

The UFRR's rails were never used by streetcars. The streetcars had thier own line(s) parallel to the UFRR. After a while the streetcars were abolished and replaced by the subway/elevateds.

All factors considered, the most practical way to connect North Station, South Station and Logan would be to run an express buss. It would not be as nice as through connections but would sure beat the conglomeration of 2-3 subway rides and much walking through tunnels. As one who has great difficulty walking and who frequently takes a commuter train into North than transfers to the South station bus terminal it would be a boon. Granted it would not be as fast as a runthrough but with proper scheduling it wouldn't be bad and it is a financially feasable compromise

I keep thinking they could sink a tunnel under the harbor. Maybe there are too many tunnels there now for it to work, but it seems to me you could run one down the Fort Point channel, put in underground stations connecting to South Station and North Station, and bring it up again near where the North Station lines branch out. With about a mile of grade to work with to get it under the harbor, you could get it down about 100 feet, which should be deep enough. This may sound expensive, but it might actually be cheaper than tearing up the streets under Boston again.

trainhq wrote:I keep thinking they could sink a tunnel under the harbor. Maybe there are too many tunnels there now for it to work, but it seems to me you could run one down the Fort Point channel, put in underground stations connecting to South Station and North Station, and bring it up again near where the North Station lines branch out. With about a mile of grade to work with to get it under the harbor, you could get it down about 100 feet, which should be deep enough. This may sound expensive, but it might actually be cheaper than tearing up the streets under Boston again.

When they built the Big Dig, they put in provisions (not sure exactly what) for a bored rail tunnel beneath the roadway.

A link between North Station and South Station should have been included
with the "big dig". Unfortunately, it is too late for that now and I doubt
that it will happen anytime soon.
The best way for Amtrak to get to Portland from south of Boston would be
to restore a New York - Portland round trip via Worcester. Both routes
into Worcester from the south (via Providence or via Norwich) are intact
and in reasonable condition. The former Boston and Maine route going
north out of Worcester is also still in use. It would cost far less to fix up
the tracks through Worcester and run a New York - Portland train this way
than any other alternative. A good number of intermediate points could
benefit from a train on this route too.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:A link between North Station and South Station should have been included
with the "big dig". Unfortunately, it is too late for that now and I doubt
that it will happen anytime soon.
The best way for Amtrak to get to Portland from south of Boston would be
to restore a New York - Portland round trip via Worcester. Both routes
into Worcester from the south (via Providence or via Norwich) are intact
and in reasonable condition. The former Boston and Maine route going
north out of Worcester is also still in use. It would cost far less to fix up
the tracks through Worcester and run a New York - Portland train this way
than any other alternative. A good number of intermediate points could
benefit from a train on this route too.
Noel Weaver

Great idea! Since there is already the Downeaster it would be unnecessary for this train to go through Boston and folks could connect to "the hub" LOL from Worcester via commuter rail and the Lake Shore.

NRGeep wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:A link between North Station and South Station should have been included
with the "big dig". Unfortunately, it is too late for that now and I doubt
that it will happen anytime soon.
The best way for Amtrak to get to Portland from south of Boston would be
to restore a New York - Portland round trip via Worcester. Both routes
into Worcester from the south (via Providence or via Norwich) are intact
and in reasonable condition. The former Boston and Maine route going
north out of Worcester is also still in use. It would cost far less to fix up
the tracks through Worcester and run a New York - Portland train this way
than any other alternative. A good number of intermediate points could
benefit from a train on this route too.
Noel Weaver

Great idea! Since there is already the Downeaster it would be unnecessary for this train to go through Boston and folks could connect to "the hub" LOL from Worcester via commuter rail and the Lake Shore.

My point was not to change any of the present "Downeaster" trains but
rather to expand the service to a round trip between New York and
Portland. This would serve an entirely different market. Nobody except
maybe a few railfans would take a train from Boston to Worcester to
change to a train for Portland. Actually a train between Worcester and
Portland would still go through Haverhill and a transfer could be made
there but again a loss of time and a two seat ride instead of a one seat
ride does not make that an attractive alternative either.
I personally think the New York - Portland market would justify a daily
rount trip, whether it ever gets one still remains to be seen.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:

NRGeep wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:A link between North Station and South Station should have been included
with the "big dig". Unfortunately, it is too late for that now and I doubt
that it will happen anytime soon.
The best way for Amtrak to get to Portland from south of Boston would be
to restore a New York - Portland round trip via Worcester. Both routes
into Worcester from the south (via Providence or via Norwich) are intact
and in reasonable condition. The former Boston and Maine route going
north out of Worcester is also still in use. It would cost far less to fix up
the tracks through Worcester and run a New York - Portland train this way
than any other alternative. A good number of intermediate points could
benefit from a train on this route too.
Noel Weaver

Great idea! Since there is already the Downeaster it would be unnecessary for this train to go through Boston and folks could connect to "the hub" LOL from Worcester via commuter rail and the Lake Shore.

My point was not to change any of the present "Downeaster" trains but
rather to expand the service to a round trip between New York and
Portland. This would serve an entirely different market. Nobody except
maybe a few railfans would take a train from Boston to Worcester to
change to a train for Portland. Actually a train between Worcester and
Portland would still go through Haverhill and a transfer could be made
there but again a loss of time and a two seat ride instead of a one seat
ride does not make that an attractive alternative either.
I personally think the New York - Portland market would justify a daily
rount trip, whether it ever gets one still remains to be seen.
Noel Weaver

This in effect, would bring back 'The State of Maine?'The only reason I brought up Boston connections is this threads focus on the North South link. But, yes, especially with the price of petrol remaining at high prices for the forseeable future a Portland-NYC train makes sense.

The best Maine to New York service was probably the Bar Harbor Express and the Flying Yankee. Portland to Worcester to Providence via B&M-NH (P&W). But that was long ago and tracks have been pulled and all things rearranged. Can they be put back? Should they be?

I would think curves on the UFRR would be too sharp, being they are street running. The big problem on the Grand Junction is that speeds are very low due to unprotected crossings. The bridge over the Charles ain't lookin too pretty, both litlerally and metaphorically.

B&MYoshi wrote:I would think curves on the UFRR would be too sharp, being they are street running. The big problem on the Grand Junction is that speeds are very low due to unprotected crossings. The bridge over the Charles ain't lookin too pretty, both litlerally and metaphorically.

Well if the big problem is just unprotected street crossings, then i'd rather pay for 4 sets of gates for the street crossings, instead of digging a new tunnel through boston...

henry6 wrote:The best Maine to New York service was probably the Bar Harbor Express and the Flying Yankee. Portland to Worcester to Providence via B&M-NH (P&W). But that was long ago and tracks have been pulled and all things rearranged. Can they be put back? Should they be?

The "Bar Harbor" was not the best service although it may have been the
best train. It ran only in season, at night, with all sleeping cars and
catered to the people who could afford pullman service to Bar Harbor and
made few intermediate stops.
The best service was trains like the "East Wind" a coach and parlor car train with a dining car too, although that too was a seasonal operation and the "State of Maine" which was an overnight coach and sleeping car train between New York and Portland but that one ran year round. Both of
these trains served intermediate stations all through the route.
I don't think an overnight train would do too well in the above territory but
a day train could do quite well.
Noel Weaver