Hoosier State Discussion (both Amtrak and Iowa Pacific)

To crank this back over to the Hoosier again, remind me who all dispatches the usual (ex-C&WI) route from Dyer to Union Station? It isn’t an all-CN routing except as a detour, at least that’s what I remember reading. It’s been so many years since I rode the Cardinal (CHI-CVS) that I wouldn’t have been aware enough to know where we were routed.

Down the road, there is a possibility that the Electric District Line will run like subway frequencies during rush hour and during off peak and on weekends, it will run multiple times an hour. The line to University Park seems like it can use the same type of service that Metro North and the Long Island Railroad have on many of their main lines. Chicago to University Park is almost the same distance as traveling from Grand Central Terminal to Croton-Harmon and at many stations between Grand Central and Croton-Harmon, you aren’t waiting longer than 30 minutes for a MNR train on weekends. I don’t think the Cardinal would ever get routed permanently on the Metra Electric Line given the number of existing Metra Trains that overlap with the South Shore Line trains.

mtuandrew wrote:To crank this back over to the Hoosier again, remind me who all dispatches the usual (ex-C&WI) route from Dyer to Union Station? It isn’t an all-CN routing except as a detour, at least that’s what I remember reading. It’s been so many years since I rode the Cardinal (CHI-CVS) that I wouldn’t have been aware enough to know where we were routed.

No CN at all.

CSX from Indy to CP Munster. CN Elsdon Sub is now dispatched by CSX from CP Munster west.
Leave the Elsdon sub for UP Villa Grove Subdivision.
Villa Grove ends at BRC 81st St --- the Cardinal/Hoosier State pass through that interlocking and come out on the NS/Metra Connection track.
At the north end of the NS/Metra Connection the train is on the Metra Southwest Sub District (a section of track that will be bypassed by Metra if/when SWS moves to Lasalle St. Metra calls this eastbound toward Union Station.
At the north end of Metra the train joins the Chicago Line (Chicago to Toledo and beyond ... not the Chicago District). NS calls this westbound toward Union Station.
The NS line ends at CP 21st St (Amtrak controlled). Amtrak has control to Union Station.


The 75th Street Corridor Improvement Project ( http://www.75thcip.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) is the CREATE project rebuilding the connection between Metra SWS, UP, NS and other railroads. Metra will move their SWS to Lasalle St using a new overpass. The Cardinal will get an overpass to connect UP to the NS/Metra Connector without conflicts with BRC. There will be other improvements to the west along the 75th St Corridor - but those two changes affect the Cardinal.

njt/mnrrbuff wrote:I don’t think the Cardinal would ever get routed permanently on the Metra Electric Line given the number of existing Metra Trains that overlap with the South Shore Line trains.

Not the MED, the parallel non-electrified tracks still owned and (I believe now rarely) operated by CN. They cross over the MED at McCormick Place and go west while the electric lines keep going north to Millennium Station.

Lurker: thanks, I had read about CSX taking over the Elsdon Sub but it was locked away in my memory somewhere. At least it’s only four separate dispatchers now, not five (unless they have to wait for the BRC dispatcher too.)

BRC controls 81st St. IHB controls Dolton Jct on the UP. So six dispatchers? (CSX > UP/IHB Dolton/BRC 81st/Metra/NS/Amtrak)

Using West Lake would reduce that to NICTD/CN/NS/Amtrak (assuming the Grand Crossing connection is built between CN and NS).
West Lake without Grand Crossing is NICTD/CN/BNSF/Amtrak with the reverse move on the BNSF line.
(Technically add Metra Electric for travel through the interlocking at Kensington.)

Off topic, but related of sorts to Mr. Lurker's immediate.

My very first trip to Chicago (college hunting) was during April 1961 on the B&O Capitol Limited (Slumbercoach; being nice to Mom and Dad's pocketbook). Growing up along the New Haven (Riverside), I was used to the Woodlawn Jct (NH-NYC) "flyover" (sure, Berkshire Jct Norwalk on the "prison train" to School was 10mph, but then that was "leaving civilization" to "serve three months").

But now, I'm off to the Railroad Capital - and what a disappointment getting to it.

The Capitol "picked its way" over one "diamond" or the other, traveling on the B&OCT and SOO West to head North and finally arrived (on time, of course) at Grand Central (others there: C&O, SOO).

So to close back on topic; insofar as the Hoosier State/Cardinal goes; no different today than it was fifty eight years ago.

Was the current route also the route the Monon used for its passenger trains? If not, how did they approach their downtown Chicago station (and which was it?)

The Monon ran to Dearborn station; it used its own tracks from Dyer to Hammond, then the Chicago & Western Indiana to Dearborn. See map.

The current terminal route is cobbled together and makes no sense except in light of the complicated history of the Hoosier State. Ex-GTW from Manyard to Thornton Junction, ex-C&EI to Dolton, ex-C&WI Dolton Branch to around 83rd Street, and ex-C&WI to the Union Station approach.

Just got back from a trip on the Cardinal. Left Chicago yesterday(Tuesday) and made it to Dyer without stopping or any freight interference. Thus we had to wait for time. When there is no interference it works great. Unfortunately, yesterday was probably an aberration. I did notice that after we moved off the NS line, our top speed was rater slow(45) but steady. I guess the changing of track ownership so many times does not allow getting up to a higher speed. BTW, we were on time or early(15 minutes a Charlottesville) at almost every station including Culpeper where I got off.

I think in Munster, that's where the Cardinal and Hoosier State have to traverse so many different railroad routes so yes, the speed reduces a bit. In the end, the Cardinal is a train for anybody who isn't in a rush. For example, if there are retirees who live in West Virginia who might want to spend a weekend in Chicago without rushing to get there. That's great that the Cardinal was able to run on or close to schedule at Charlottesville and Culpeper.

mtuandrew wrote:Was the current route also the route the Monon used for its passenger trains? If not, how did they approach their downtown Chicago station (and which was it?)

Totally different route. Going north, the Monon proceeded from Dyer into Hammond, turned northwest at downtown and proceeded to the state line where it joined C&WI. C&WI paralleled the South Shore and also carried EL. It's all gone now. I think it was sandwiched between NKP and South Shore along Brainerd. NKP is now a very busy auto yard for NS. At Brainerd and 130th, it turned due northward to parallel Torrance and cross the river (bridge is still there) and up to BRC which paralleled 95th (just to the north). They turned west onto BRC (or parallel, can't remember). This is still a very busy area. From there I believe it paralleled or used BRC to trackage leading due north into Dearborn Station.

None of that route is used by Amtrak, and most of it is gone. Dearborn station headhouse is still there, and you can go inside. Another fun fact, C&WI was the terminal route used by most Dearborn tenants and was owned by all but one: Santa Fe. Many people presume the biggest and most glamorous tenant was an owner, but they were just a tenant.

If the Hoosier State is ever to be viable, it's not an Amtrak train and it's not using Union Station. A 2x/day each way starting at Randolph and using rolling stock owned and operated by a wing of NICTD is the way to go. That means south of the West Lake branch, they're on CSX and paying real trackage rights price to get preferential treatment. It might also mean terminating somewhere in Indy suburbs rather than downtown. Indy is a suburbs and car town, so there's no sense in the roundabout access to downtown just to say you're downtown, when many passengers would be driving 40 minutes from a suburb anyway. Perhaps the surplus MARC cars that are twins to NICTD cars are a good option.

But I can't see Indiana paying Amtrak highway robbery rates for the privilege of old horizon cars, old power, and a giant station in Chicago. None of that is productive.

dgvrengineer wrote:Just got back from a trip on the Cardinal. Left Chicago yesterday(Tuesday) and made it to Dyer without stopping or any freight interference. Thus we had to wait for time. When there is no interference it works great. Unfortunately, yesterday was probably an aberration. I did notice that after we moved off the NS line, our top speed was rater slow(45) but steady. I guess the changing of track ownership so many times does not allow getting up to a higher speed. BTW, we were on time or early(15 minutes a Charlottesville) at almost every station including Culpeper where I got off.

NS is technically "70 MPH" although there is not a lot of track to run. Metra is 60 max. UP is 40 north of Dolton and 20 MPH past the yard in the last timetable I saw. Crossovers and junctions have speed reductions -- usually 15 MPH but it could be lower.

Tadman wrote:If the Hoosier State is ever to be viable, it's not an Amtrak train and it's not using Union Station. A 2x/day each way starting at Randolph and using rolling stock owned and operated by a wing of NICTD is the way to go. That means south of the West Lake branch, they're on CSX and paying real trackage rights price to get preferential treatment. It might also mean terminating somewhere in Indy suburbs rather than downtown. Indy is a suburbs and car town, so there's no sense in the roundabout access to downtown just to say you're downtown, when many passengers would be driving 40 minutes from a suburb anyway. Perhaps the surplus MARC cars that are twins to NICTD cars are a good option.

But I can't see Indiana paying Amtrak highway robbery rates for the privilege of old horizon cars, old power, and a giant station in Chicago. None of that is productive.

Tadman, I am an advocate of the NICTD running the HS. Not sure I agree with your point on not going downtown Indy. As a southbound customer I would want to go to the city core not a random suburb. And Indy civic leaders would certainly insist on a core city terminal. An additional suburban stop especially at the Airport would be ideal. I also agree that the HS does not have to terminate at CUS, but is Millennium Station capable of hosting diesel engines? And it is a much smaller station with limited tracks and platforms, does MS even have capacity?

jpIllInoIs wrote:An additional suburban stop especially at the Airport would be ideal.

Mr. JP, there appears to be somebody's ROW around much of Wier Cook's perimeter, but it doesn't look all that active - or at least when the Googlemobile was last by.