Hoosier State Discussion (both Amtrak and Iowa Pacific)

Gilbert B Norman wrote:

jpIllInoIs wrote:An additional suburban stop especially at the Airport would be ideal.

Mr. JP, there appears to be somebody's ROW around much of Wier Cook's perimeter, but it doesn't look all that active - or at least when the Googlemobile was last by.

Try 1911 S Girls School Rd The photo taken in 2015 includes a UP stack train (engine 7777). Apparently stopped short of the crossing since the gates are not activated.

jpIllInoIs wrote:I also agree that the HS does not have to terminate at CUS, but is Millennium Station capable of hosting diesel engines? And it is a much smaller station with limited tracks and platforms, does MS even have capacity?

I believe it can handle one diesel. The tiedown equipment still exists from when NICTD leased a Metra diesel set a few decades ago. But I'd rather the train go to CUS.

justalurker66 wrote:

Gilbert B Norman wrote:

jpIllInoIs wrote:An additional suburban stop especially at the Airport would be ideal.

Mr. JP, there appears to be somebody's ROW around much of Wier Cook's perimeter, but it doesn't look all that active - or at least when the Googlemobile was last by.

Try 1911 S Girls School Rd The photo taken in 2015 includes a UP stack train (engine 7777). Apparently stopped short of the crossing since the gates are not activated.

That line along the north side of Indianapolis Airport (I've never hear the Wier Cook name for it before and according the airport's history page, the name was dropped in 1976) is, the last I knew, how the HS and Cardinal gets into and out of Indianapolis (I was involved in a project 20+ years ago that had me spending much time on the north side of the airport along that line and saw the HS or Cardinal on it a few times). The near E/W section is the ex-PRR PIT-STL main line but along the north side of the airport, the line turns north (with the ex-PRR line to STL abandoned west of it - the N Perimeter Rd then moves on to the ROW) and provides access to Avon Yard. At least back when I was there in the mid-90s, it still had PRR position light signals.

Assuming that's how those trains still operate, adding an airport stop would not be all that difficult.

OK, Messrs. Lurker and Stone; the Googlemobile establishes that the PRR (Main; route of "The Spirit of St. Louis) X's Girl's School Road and parallels the perimeter of KIND/IND/Wier Cook. Therefore, I'll concede that an Airport stop/terminal is feasable for the Hoosier State, should it survive.

Now since, even though I have long standing friends of the thirty five year varietal in Indy, I simply cannot envision riding the Hoosier State for any reason (when I have to give up driving, I'd fly). So I assume HS uses the C,I&L (Monon) to Greencastle and interchanges to the PRR there.

Only issue with that; according to Google Maps, the C,I&L-PRR interchange is only through the S to W quadrant. Is there some kind of backup move there, or is there another quadrant Mr. Google does not show?

Enquiring mind wants to know.

Finally, I recall returning to UofI circa '64 on a JFK-TW-IND-OZ-CMI routing (train hating Father to railfan Son: "you were twelve hours late last Xmas. Time for you to get out there like everyone else does - fly"). The TWA "Stewardess" announces "we've just landed at Indianapolis' Wier Cook Airport where the local time is...."

Even though "not exactly" a major carrier at Indy, United once had a maintenance facility there.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:OK, Messrs. Lurker and Stone; the Googlemobile establishes that the PRR (Main; route of "The Spirit of St. Louis) X's Girl's School Road and parallels the perimeter of KIND/IND/Wier Cook. Therefore, I'll concede that an Airport stop/terminal is feasable for the Hoosier State, should it survive.

Now since, even though I have long standing friends of the thirty five year varietal in Indy, I simply cannot envision riding the Hoosier State for any reason (when I have to give up driving, I'd fly). So I assume HS uses the C,I&L (Monon) to Greencastle and interchanges to the PRR there.

Only issue with that; according to Google Maps, the C,I&L-PRR interchange is only through the S to W quadrant. Is there some kind of backup move there, or is there another quadrant Mr. Google does not show?

The remaining line in Greencastle is, AFAIK, ex-NYC. As I stated above, the ex-PRR is abandoned west of the airport with the Perimeter Rd. on the ROW after the line turns north. I believe the HS route heading towards Indy is Monon to Crawfordsville, Big Four to Clermont where it crossed a PRR branch and is now abandoned east of there, PRR south to where it joins the PIT-STL main by the airport, and then east to Indy.

Even though "not exactly" a major carrier at Indy, United once had a maintenance facility there.

Yes, and as you (GBN) know my work history, the reason for all my trips there 20+ years ago. Completely unrelated to this topic but one of my memories of it was we were duplicating a mini-computer system we had at SFO at IND with new computer hardware to be delivered to IND. Time was short so I built the system on compatible hardware at SFO and then made three full system backup tapes (remember tape?). One went in my checked bag, one went in my carry-on bag, and one went separately with a co-worker, the goal being even if one of the tapes was bad or something was lost, we'd still have a good tape. First restore worked and the system was up and running within a few hours.

Has this topic ever had me fishing through my Nov '64 Guide!!

That road you note, Mr. Stone, appears to be the Peoria and Eastern, which was passenger train free before I ever showed up at Champaign during '61.

I never really knew how Hoosier State and Cardinal were routed. It sure looks like some "gerrymandered" routing - no wonder it takes five hours when I can drive same in 3'15" (if you call posted +2 speeding, then I always do).

If NICTD could add a division to run Chicago-Indy trains, more power to them.

Going into Millenium station is an interesting idea. It would be just as convenient for most Indiana-to-Chicago daytrippers (though why Indiana taxes should subsidize daytrippers to Chicago is a question to ask) and it would be at least equally convenient for people who live in the center of Chicago (in high-rises just north of Millenium station) or who take cabs, ubers, or the L to the station. On that route, it would also be interesting to look at a Hyde Park stop; lots of people with money and without cars who might like a little weekend jaunt, or have an academic conference in Indy or West Lafayette. If the train were a tenant on the Metra Electric district stopping at 59th St or so would be trivial, especially if the cars had automatic doors.

I agree that a suburban stop might be attractive to a lot of passengers, but I would add it rather than doing it instead of downtown; it would be better to get into Indy, even kind of slowly, than to terminate in the suburbs because with a decent schedule one market for a Chicago-Indy train would be sports and conventions and such in Indy.

I forget even why we had suggested Millennium Station. Is it because Amtrak won’t be a fair landlord at Union Station? I think we have proven that Amtrak has ceased to care about the Hoosier State regardless of who operates it.

I thought the idea behind Millennium was to keep it on NICTD track as much as possible, and eliminate the nonsense necessary when coming off the electric lines and getting in/out of Union Station.

eolesen wrote:I thought the idea behind Millennium was to keep it on NICTD track as much as possible, and eliminate the nonsense necessary when coming off the electric lines and getting in/out of Union Station.

Theoretically, NICTD would be a more direct route in to Chicago (once West Lake is built). CSX to Munster then NICTD to Millennium Station instead of the several other railroads. The NICTD route also prioritizes passenger service, so there would be little or no freight interference.

Such a solution would be a long way off and certainly outside of the scope of continuing current service.

I'm also wondering whether there would be a stop at Van Buren St., and what the dwell time of an Indianapolis train would do to NICTD and Metra Electric service during certain hours.

A three hour drive, four hour bus or five hour train. Or a 55 minute flight.

If they could get the train down to four hours (7am ET-10am CT) it would arrive after the peak. Initially I'd say no Chicago stops except Millennium, but there would be the opportunity to use Van Buren and possibly 55-56-57th St.

Evening peak is 3:57-5:58 on NICTD. If they sent the outbound Indianapolis train at 6:30pm CT it would arrive in Indy at 11:30pm ET. If the train left earlier it would be during rush hour. It would also cut in to the "spend the day in Chicago" usage.

(Current Cardinal 6-10am inbound, 5:45-11:30pm outbound.)

I dunno, moving the terminus from CUS to Millennium still seems like the equivalent of moving from a bus terminal to a curbside Megabus pickup. Is there anything worth the title of “waiting room” at Millennium?

Millenium Station is a multi-faceted benefit.

1. Simpler route downtown. No complex wye or waiting on Metra.
2. Smaller station. No absurd boarding procedures. Consider the megabus competition is using a street corner. A covered platform at Millenium is just fine. I hate CUS boarding procedures, especially when Metra doesn't have to use them.
3. Costs. I'm sure Amtrak extracts a pretty penny to use this big complicated and maintenance-intensive building. Why pay for this?
4. Yarding. Why use 14th (and pay for it) when there is space at Millenium that's essentially free?
5. Support. There are car cleaners at Millenium on NICTD's payroll. Same with police. Why pay retail at CUS?
6. Goals. Indiana doesn't want a train to interface with the Chief or Builder, they want a corridor train to get Chicago commerce into Indiana.

There was also a question of space. There is room for a few more tracks east of the NICTD platforms, and there is already one storage track there.

mtuandrew wrote:Is there anything worth the title of “waiting room” at Millennium?

Yes. There isn't a "business class/sleeper passenger" private lounge. But Metra has an indoor climate controlled waiting area and NICTD's "outdoor" waiting area (connected to the platforms) is an underground facility that is comfortable year round.

For the people being targeted (business or other day trip to Chicago) the facilities are more than adequate. I see the Indy/Lafayette to Chicago and return train similar to the service provided between Millennium and South Bend.

The service would need changes (additional trains) if this were to become an Indianapolis hub train. A morning train to Indy and an evening return. But that would be years away even if there were enough support to add such services.

While I agree that NICTD could run a better (more frequent) service between Indianapolis and the loop does NICTD solve any of the big problems that the Hoosier State currently has? Munster to Randolph Street would certainly be an easier entry into Chicago, but other than that, NICTD would still need to get trackage rights from CSX for the majority of the route? And that route would still be much slower than driving? Right?

Am I missing something?