Home for URHS museum at old CNJ terminal?

I recently paid a visit to the trainshed at the ex-CNJ terminal and the thought had re-entered my mind about the notions of refurbishment and re-use of the trainshed. I had also perused some public pamphlets about volunteerism at Liberty State Park. On the subject of the trainshed, there are apparently intentions to use the structure for rail-related exhibits (a nod to us here), large special events, and an urban gardening project in the future. Can someone clue me in on what would constitute a "large special event" and what the urban gardening project would entail? I do get the feeling though that the gardening project is more of this "keeping LSP green" business on the part of the Friends of LSP and frankly I'd hate to see the sheds become like an enormous greenhouse as I feel that would be untrue to the historical character of the place (there is plenty of room elsewhere to put a garden, too). I'd love to see all twenty tracks relaid but I know that's a bit demanding. If the tracks were relaid with a connection to the national grid I could also see really great possibility for excursions from this point as well the obvious static display units.

True, it would be a shame to see the trainsheds made into a huge green house, however, if that meant that the tracks would be covered and protected from the elements, then it might not be a bad idea, especially if some tracks were relaid and equipment stored/displayed there.

I think that while it would be a perfect location, especially with the Liberty Science Center there so close, I do think some kind of enclosure would be necessary to prevent rapid deteriation of the equipment. If a greenhouse type structure would be relativey cheap and fit the bill, well then that might be doable - heck, put solar panels on top of it, and make it a green museum as well! Alternate tracks - one have equipment on it, the other be a garden, that way everyone is happy! Could really be a green exhibit, and the underlying theme of railroads being "green" be reinforced quite visually, especially with solar panels on the roof of the trainshed. Something like that might draw the attention (and financial help) of the actual railroads, (CSX for example, with their aggressive advertising campaign and promoting the benefits of rail and the environment) - that kind of advertising in the NYC area would be tremendous for them, especially with the resurgence of interest in the rail industry by "normal" people.

I would think a study of major rail museums near cities would be necessary to compare the amount of tourism that could be brought in or increased with a train museum there at the terminal. I would think that it could easily top 100 Million with repairing the trainsheds, some kind of enclosure over the tracks, and of course laying the tracks, moving the equipment, etc. Its not a small chunk of change, however, if a organized plan, a concerted effort by a group with a SINGLE focus, with real numbers and benefits, and a decent study was done, it might have a chance of getting somewhere. Maybe not now, but in the future.

Also, it might not be a bad idea to try to draw back the USS New Jersey, as from what I remember, the museum down there in Camden wasn't doing so hot.

Some might look at it as a negative being so close to the Intrepid, however, that might be a plus, because you might get more people willing to make a trip from further away to see TWO museums in the area, and made a 2 day trip of it instead of coming all this way for just 1.

Some might look at it as a negative being so close to the Intrepid, however, that might be a plus, because you might get more people willing to make a trip from further away to see TWO museums in the area, and made a 2 day trip of it instead of coming all this way for just 1.

I don't think it matters. Camden has an excellent aquarium and a naval exhibit just across the river in Philadelphia, the USS Olympia. Yet, they seem to do nothing for the NJ exhibit. I believe the big problem is that people just won't go to Camden to see a battleship. If it had been in JC, it may have done better, but I tend to doubt that too. I think the Intrepid is an anomaly, and does so well because it is the beneficiary of being in Manhattan. It gets boatloads (pardon the expression) of free publicity (movies, tv news) and has become part of the skyline. The NJ would never get that.

JLo wrote:

Some might look at it as a negative being so close to the Intrepid, however, that might be a plus, because you might get more people willing to make a trip from further away to see TWO museums in the area, and made a 2 day trip of it instead of coming all this way for just 1.

I don't think it matters. Camden has an excellent aquarium and a naval exhibit just across the river in Philadelphia, the USS Olympia. Yet, they seem to do nothing for the NJ exhibit. I believe the big problem is that people just won't go to Camden to see a battleship. If it had been in JC, it may have done better, but I tend to doubt that too. I think the Intrepid is an anomaly, and does so well because it is the beneficiary of being in Manhattan. It gets boatloads (pardon the expression) of free publicity (movies, tv news) and has become part of the skyline. The NJ would never get that.

Nonsense ... the Camden Aquarium does joint group ticketing with the USS New Jersey (I know because I utiliized it for a tour I took there this past summer) who handles all the reservation and ticketing arrangements. The ship was also extremely busy on the day we were there (a weekday) and does a good business with event rentals. The "Big J" also isn't going anywhere, because it was awarded to the South-Jersey based "Homeport Alliance" (named such because the ship was built in the Philly naval shipyard), and is not owned by the State of NJ. Contrary to what those up north may think, the museum is professionally run and doing just fine where it's at ... it's within walking distance to light rail, the aquarium, and the Tweeter Center, and is well patronized. By Liberty State Park, it would be nothing more than a little fish in a big pond.

Nonsense ... the Camden Aquarium does joint group ticketing with the USS New Jersey (I know because I utiliized it for a tour I took there this past summer) who handles all the reservation and ticketing arrangements. The ship was also extremely busy on the day we were there (a weekday) and does a good business with event rentals.

The ship is a huge money loser and has had to cut back its hours of operation for lack of funds. It has never drawn close to what was projected. Neither the statistics not your anecdotal evidence are proof otherwise. While I am a financial and tourism supporter of the ship and the idea of the museum, it is not doing well.

JLo wrote:
The ship is a huge money loser and has had to cut back its hours of operation for lack of funds. It has never drawn close to what was projected. Neither the statistics not your anecdotal evidence are proof otherwise. While I am a financial and tourism supporter of the ship and the idea of the museum, it is not doing well.

And if people had actually read the articles pertaining to the cutback in hours nearly a year ago (for the winter months only), it was a reduction in State funding ... not a decrease in visitors ... that was the root cause. I believe they lost almost a third of their state funding due to NJ's budget woes.

I hate to break it to those who wanted the ship up north, but ALL ... I repeat ALL museum ships not located in year-round warm weather climates or big active military towns are money losers. They ALL require subisdies to operate and maintain. Yes, even the the Intrepid, which receives multiple HUGE endowments from the Fishcer family. The Fischers have made the Intrepid their personal "Sugar Baby" and have dumped big bucks into it over the years.

As I recall, the bogus NJ Battleship Commission looked at putting the ship near LSP and the proposed pier was in such poor shape that it was deemed not suitable for mooring even with heavy repair. The other choices were anchoring it in the harbor near the Statue of Liberty (which was quickly shot down) or in Bayonne. Nobody was going to go out of their way to Bayonne to visit the ship, as much as people seemed to think they would. Bayonne is no more convenient or a tourist draw than Camden. The State also had a law on the books giving preference to cities in need of economic redevelopment. But ... the board (conveniently made up of nearly all North Jersey politicians and supporters) ignored that, and a number of other factors that weighed in Camden's favor, and selected the location they wanted from the start.

Too bad they didn't do their homework and assumed the ship was theirs just because they said so.

And yes ... if it sounds like I"m sick of this mentality that everything cultural in this state needs to be located north of I-287, you're right. People in other parts of the state pay just as much taxes, and they deserve to have some of the stuff located where it's convenient for them too.

It's the same reason people whined when Flemington was originally chosen as home to the proposed rail museum. "Oh ... it's not historic enough" was the whining and crying back then ... even though it was near the middle of the state, had good highway access, there was land available, an existing tourist railroad to run the equipment on, other tourist draws to lure in increased visitors, and a town that at one time was served by three railroads (PRR, CNJ, and LV). But no ... it wasn't in North Jersey ... where many of the URHS people were from ... so we had to do the selection process all over again and missed the window of opportunity. Based on what's happened economically between then and now, we could have had the thing built, the equipment restored, and trains running by now.

Instead, it's turned into a turf war between several North Jersey groups who all want it in "their" part of the state. Now ... some 20 years later ... we are no closer to having a museum than we were back then.

it was a reduction in State funding ... not a decrease in visitors ... that was the root cause. I believe they lost almost a third of their state funding due to NJ's budget woes.

You made the very point that the ship and museum are not self-supporting. State aid was never to be permanent. And the ship has never met its goals in visitors--so the fact that the number hasn't decreased doesn't make it sustainable. If you read my post, you will see that I don't necessarily agree that moving the ship to LSP or Bayonne or anywhere else was going to make it self-supporting.

Off pending, very good points are made by you with regard to the whole Battleship NJ.

However, I think we need to take a step back here and look at a bigger picture.

In this day and age, I don't think that we are ever going to see just the train/transportation museum built. It is going to have to be combined with something else to be a bigger draw and in theory, loose less money.

You said it yourself, the Battleship looses money and its hours were cut due to a decline in state funding. How many museums that loose money are we going to have? Would a transportation/train museum by itself make money or close to it enough to be self sufficent? I doubt it.

Moving the New Jersey to Liberty State Park, building a transportation museum as well as botanical gardens, with Liberty Science Center right there as well would consolidate a lot of differnet attractions into one place, already owned by the state, and draw a much wider range, and in theory, MORE people than 4 seperate attractions seperate from each other. Each would feed off each other, and IMO, would really be a knock out and a real destination, much more so than just Liberty Science Center, which already draws relatively large crowds.

I did NOT mention moving it to Jersey City simply because its in "South Jersey"........

Jtgshu wrote: Moving the New Jersey to Liberty State Park, building a transportation museum as well as botanical gardens, with Liberty Science Center right there as well would consolidate a lot of different attractions into one place, already owned by the state, and draw a much wider range, and in theory, MORE people than 4 separate attractions separate from each other.

That sounds like a plan! Now all we have to do is get Liberty Science Center to co-operate with the Friends of Liberty State Park, and then get the URHS to join in.....oh wait, but first we need to get the Friends of the NJ Transportation Heritage Center to actually co-operate with the vision of the URHS....... oh, and I forgot; Before we do that, we need to get all the various member organizations to unanimously vote for this endeavor.

Trust me, you have a better chance of seeing total, lasting peace in the Middle East than you do of seeing anything that even sorta resembles this ever happening.

Such a sensible, forward-thinking, 'outside-the-box' plan is way too big and scary for the URHS, which has stuck to its original, nearly 23 year old plan.

Without a wholesale change-out of most of the folks at the helm of these organizations, the formation of a single, viable, replacement organization to consolidate everything, or the State Park Service acquiring everything for the purpose of a museum, all of us, our children, and our grandchildren will all be dead and buried before a PROPER transportation center is ever established.

I couldn't even convince the organizations to support more than 2 Open Houses in Boonton. Do you really think they'd go for something as ambitious as the plan we're suggesting here?

Enough of these ridiculous speculations. Its never gonna happen. Everything will eventually wind up being sold off, scrapped, or allowed to rust away to nothing.

Move on, folks....... I did!

Off Pending wrote: The other choices were anchoring it in the harbor near the Statue of Liberty (which was quickly shot down) or in Bayonne. Nobody was going to go out of their way to Bayonne to visit the ship, as much as people seemed to think they would. Bayonne is no more convenient or a tourist draw than Camden.

The difference is that Camden generally has the highest crime rate of any city in NJ and Bayonne first or second lowest. That is a significant factor.

Jtgshu wrote:Off pending, very good points are made by you with regard to the whole Battleship NJ.

However, I think we need to take a step back here and look at a bigger picture.

In this day and age, I don't think that we are ever going to see just the train/transportation museum built. It is going to have to be combined with something else to be a bigger draw and in theory, loose less money.

You said it yourself, the Battleship looses money and its hours were cut due to a decline in state funding. How many museums that loose money are we going to have? Would a transportation/train museum by itself make money or close to it enough to be self sufficent? I doubt it.

Moving the New Jersey to Liberty State Park, building a transportation museum as well as botanical gardens, with Liberty Science Center right there as well would consolidate a lot of differnet attractions into one place, already owned by the state, and draw a much wider range, and in theory, MORE people than 4 seperate attractions seperate from each other. Each would feed off each other, and IMO, would really be a knock out and a real destination, much more so than just Liberty Science Center, which already draws relatively large crowds.

I did NOT mention moving it to Jersey City simply because its in "South Jersey"........

The same could be said if the Transportation Museum were located in South Jersey by the Battleship. No matter where you group it, it's going to draw tourists if there's enough there to do. Orlando, FL would be a good example of that. That's what the reasoning was behind putting the NJ, the Aquarium, the Tweeter Center, and the Riversharks stadium all across the river from Penn's Landing. Unfortunately, the ball stopped rolling there, and the politcial corruption that is rampant in this state keeps sucking up all the funds that could actually be used to do something.

HAHAHA I never said that it could ever happen, just what I think would work and make for a really kickass place to go an visit.......

Gotta love how things work in NJ..........

True, there are draws in Camden, but the crime is a MAJOR factor and a MAJOR turn off for a lot of folks - just yesterday, it was all over the news that Camden is the most unsafe city in the country.......not good PR for drawing in tourists.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_j ... _U_S_.html

Camden has the highest crime rate in the country once again, according to an annual study released yesterday by CQ Press.

In a ranking of 393 cities, Camden had more than five times the national average of violent crimes in 2008. Just behind Camden - with 2,332.6 violent crimes per 100,000 population - were St. Louis; Oakland, Calif.; and Detroit and Flint, Mich.

Thats something that simply cannot be dismissed, its a turn off for a lot of folks, especially those with younger kids who live in "safe" suburbia (in their minds at least)

I still remember when Newark was at top of the national crime rates in the early 90s. Camden still is in sad shape. St. Louis ,Detroit and Chicago (especially South Chicago) all high up there, common together as industrial Midwest cities that seen industry and jobs dry up and become depressed slums. Newark was also an industry city in its heyday.

The battle over where to put a transportation museum will never end. It is all because different transportation organizations and museums think there location is the best. So why not just bring them all under the umbrella of a state transportation museum? Buy a ticket at one and it is honored at all for a period of time. And this is not my idea but when I heard it I thought that it is a great idea. But you know why it will never fly? Beacause every museum thinks their site is the best for a state museum. And we can't let the poloticians off the hook either. P'Burg looked like it was finally going to be the location but again the bickering led that to become a condominium developement backed by that famous do nothing former governor (yes, which one, there have been so many) Florio. Face it. It has a water front which will bring in mega bucks for a condo that has a view of the water. So I too feel that the state of NJ will never have a state sanctioned transportation museum.

Later!
Mr. Ed

Dare I say that even if you had a location (Jersey City, Camden, Phillipsburg, a corn field in Warren County) that the bulk of the URHS "collection" is not worthy of being in a museum. How many GG1's do we need? E units and F units painted for railroads that are the favorites of URHS leadership - they would never be allowed into a properly accredited museum. And then there's the famous "it never ran in NJ" Hickory Creek. Do we fill out the exhibits with second hand Jersey Builder coaches - how many is enough? Well at least there is the Susquehanna S2 from the first Class 1 in America to dieselize; oh wait they gave that away. Well we can show a PRR MP54; oh that's right we missed a deadline to move it so it no longer belongs to us. No steam locomotives, no Ingersol Rand pioneer diesels, no long distance passenger cars, just the leftovers given to them in the 80's.

I think the reason a museum never got off the ground (aside from the people issues) is that with nothing really important enough to be in a museum no one was convinced to help build one.