Conway Scenic Railroad (CSRX) discussion thread

[CPF66]

I think there are still a bunch of washouts north of Bartlett, which is likely why they are going to restart the Bartlett runs.

[Who]

Can someone please explain to me why the Conway Scenic is not being consulted with House Bill 1468?
I asked the same question in a different thread, but I think this one gets much more attention.
This has me a little more than pissed.

1 Conway Branch Planning Group. The department of transportation, bureau of rail and transit, and the bureau of trails shall jointly meet, in consultation with the executive councilor from district 1, a member of the house public works highway committee, a member of the senate capital budget committee, a selectman or their appointed agents from the towns of Ossipee and Madison, and a representative from the New Hampshire Northcoast railroad, to formulate a plan for the best public use of a portion of the so-called "Conway Branch" between rail crossing in Center Ossipee/Moultonville Road to the rail crossing at Route 113 in Madison and to explore the feasibility of snowmobiling, walking, and biking on the existing rail corridor. The rail division shall explore the costs and income related to the removal of the rail and ties where necessary to provide a level and safe surface for recreational activity on the existing trackbed. The group shall explore funding any trail improvements from private donations, grants and/or from the sale of the existing steel rails. The 2 bureaus shall meet with this working group no less than 3 times before December 30, 2024, and issue their joint findings and recommendations to the public on or before January 2, 2025, with copies to the governor and executive council, the speaker of the house, the president of the senate, and the towns of Ossipee and Madison.

2 Effective Date. This act shall take effect July 1, 2024.

Why is NHN so against expansion opportunities, north of the pit?

[Goddraug]

Running theory is that, since NHN is a subsidiary of BS&G, if it'll have any impact on the operations of their gravel trains then they will actively push against it. Whether or not these claims have any backing, I'm unsure.

I have a theory or two as to why they might be excluding CSRR from the discussion: they're the most outspoken company in relation to using these tracks, and if you're trying to build a trail that's a big no-no. Same ordeal sort of happened with the Mt. Division in Maine, in my opinion. CSRR wasn't even let into those proceedings until someone tipped them off on it. Much like the NHN statement earlier, this is pure conjecture.

[Who]

So, the only way the Conway Scenic can insert themselves into this conversation, is to show up at a public hearing and hope they get an opportunity to speak. What disgrace, what a disgrace on NHN for supporting such a narrow-minded vision too. Will see how well that pays out in 20 years when Ossipee is all out of sand, they'll be a rail trail all the way down to Dover in 25 years.

[Goddraug]

Basically, yeah. That said, they have a stronger case for pushing against the removal of, and operating on, the Conway Branch as opposed to the Mt. Division. One of the things pointed out during the Maine proceedings (rather rudely, I’m told) is that CSRR doesn’t currently have the legal right to operate interstate commerce as a heritage railroad. Since the Conway Branch is entirely in NH, that caveat doesn’t exist.

[b&m 1566]

This is what happens when an abandoned rail line sits around and nobody does anything to save it. The state has owned it for 23 years, they performed a feasibility study immediately upon purchase, they've issued 2 RFP going back to 2015(?) and not one response to those RFP's. Now all of a sudden the railfan community is up in arms over this shift in focus, really!? The state tried people, we had 23 years to make a difference and nothing happened.
As for the NHN, they've always been operating with a sunset, with every trainload of sand pulled out of Ossipee, that date grows nearer and nearer. Boston Sand & Gravel is not in the railroad business, they are in the concrete business, when Ossipee runs out of sand they will sell it off in a way that makes them the most money. BS&G owning NHN, doesn't bode well for the railroads future.

[Goddraug]

This is what happens when an abandoned rail line sits around and nobody does anything to save it. The state has owned it for 23 years, they performed a feasibility study immediately upon purchase, they've issued 2 RFP going back to 2015(?) and not one response to those RFP's. Now all of a sudden the railfan community is up in arms over this shift in focus, really!?

Uh, yes. I'm not astonished that nobody responded to an RFP in the last few years when their main interchange partner would be a company I wouldn't trust to run a lemonade stand. The purchasing of Pan Am by CSX is such a massive selling point for rail usage that companies are using it as a way to convince companies to switch or come back to rail (to some effect).

There were at least four companies in the Tamworth area alone who expressed interest in rail in the last few months, according to one of the Fothergills (a family that works for both NHN and CSRR). To claim this is from "the railfan community" when there are actual companies interested is immensely reductive.

[b&m 1566]

You raise a valid point about CSX, but it still doesn't excuse the fact that NHN wants no business expanding to the north and have doubled down on that by supporting the rail trail. As for the potential shippers in Tamworth go, I don't see that going anywhere, not unless they can get NHN to have a change in heart.

[Goddraug]

I don't disagree either, since I doubt CSRR (who made a similar Mt. Division style offer, freight and tourist operations south to Ossipee) would be able to A. legally run freight without some type of prior paperwork filing and B. have reasonable interchange rates.

I am somewhat buoyed by the fact that I see NHN employees engage on sites like Facebook about supporting the rails, though that may just be their own personal view rather than a total change of NHN's operational plan. Time will tell, I guess.

[CPF66]

Its worth pointing out, that just because customers are interested in rail service doesn't mean A. That they will actually ship by rail or B. That the traffic would be enough to warrant the rehab and continued operation of the line.
The branch has been oos for how many decades now? Funny how the groups come out of the woodwork as soon as the word trail is mentioned, but side idle until that point.

[Goddraug]

The branch has been OOS since the 1970s. Trail groups have had decades to build their trail. Now that regional rail economics have shifted in a more positive direction (in the words of an industry insider, it's "beginning to make sense again"), they've suddenly decided that now is the perfect time to remove rail infrastructure. Interesting.

For companies and individuals who were even tangentially supportive of rail, that sudden announcement can spur people into high gear and make them realize "if we don't do something about this, the option to ship by something other than truck/expand excursion operations is about to be lost". In my opinion there's nothing shocking, or surprising, or funny, about this sudden outspokenness of stakeholders against the removal of these rails.

[CPF66]

They would need major traffic to warrant the work which is needed. At that, it would probably cheaper to rehab the Ossipee-Tamsworth portion of the branch and let the state rip out the rest and use the salvage revenue to offset the cost of the rebuild.

As for customers, they would have to ship a good amount per year to justify its operation. I believe it was mentioned on Facebook the potential customers on the MD were only going to generate like 150 car loads a year. Even if the railroads main interest was in the cruise ship passengers, that's a lot of overhead. Also those customers would have to have the freight interchanged with NHN and again with CSX, which adds more fees.
Which just by poking around on google maps, I don't see any potential customers aside from Kennebec Lumber which makes hardwood products.

I understand that Conway has new investors, however it wasn't that long ago that the place seemed to be pulling apart at the seams. Which I believe in some respects is still the case.
Frankly Conway has an outside rail connection, opening up more trackage is just adding more expenses for them. I also have my concerns about how that project would even go forward. Considering Swirk loves to start projects, but once the honeymoon phase is over, progress normally hits a wall. We have seen that with the bus that was supposed to be used for shuttle service, the high rail fire truck which still hasn't been finished, the 501 restoration, the repairs to 7470, the open air car which was going to be converted to a HEP generator, and the list goes on.

At least in my eyes, its a big investment for a little revenue, at a time when that money would be better spent finishing the 101 projects that are sitting around North Conway. If the customers are interested in rail service, NHN has been open to adding non-sand customers over the years. There is plenty of space for a transload on their section. The only reason I can think of as to why NHN would be supportive for the trail, is that it would push any potential customers their way. Plus they wouldn't have to mess around with the interchange for a second railroad.

Like I said previously, like the Mountain Division no one cared until there was the threat of it being removed. Now suddenly everyone has an operation plan and knows of someone who wants rail service. Don't get me wrong it is nice to see rail lines come back from the dead, but I just don't see it happening here. There is too much encroachment on the right of way and for the amount of work needed, I doubt the carloads would be there. If the customers truly want rail service, it would be more worth their while to transload at Rochester like other companies are doing. The reactivation of the branch definitely fits in the "It would be nice if..." folder but not so much the feasible one.

[Goddraug]

With all the respect I can muster to CSRR, NHCR, and SLR, the "outside connection" to Conway isn't really conducive to anything besides necessary equipment moves. Class 1 railroad to SLR, who then has to bring it to Groveton or Stratford, which then has to be brought down by New Hampshire Central, which then has to be brought by Conway Scenic through a mountain pass that's realistically only operable during warmer months. That outside connection is more circuitous than the Monaco Grand Prix, not conducive for freight.

Speaking of, here's what I see on google maps. Bear in mind, no assurance that these companies have been reached out to or expressed interest, just surface level investigating.

Tamworth:
- Hancock Lumber Madison Mill
- Kennebec Lumber
- Pine Tree Power
- North Country Recycling (HUGE maybe, they're kinda small).

South Conway
- Pike Industries
- Coleman Concrete

I'm not really an industry insider, so I'm not fully sure what the 4 possible customers would be in Tamworth that expressed interest. My theory is probably those four, though. Also important to note that, during the Mt. Division proceedings, HarMac said they'd like to get their steel transloaded closer to their Fryeburg location.

In the case of Pike, Coleman, and Pine Tree Power, there's some products where transloading makes less sense rather than a direct on-site delivery (mainly with loose commodities, I hate using that word but you get what I mean). Without them, you really start to enter the "is the revenue worth the cost" scenario.

I don't think Conway Scenic would be a real threat to NHN in terms of freight service, due to the previously mentioned difficulties with routing and interchange rates, compared to NHN's sole interchange with a Class 1. Again, though, this is all my own conjecture and time will really tell what happens.

[Who]

CPF66: You're all over the map with your post, in your 2nd paragraph you mention the MD and needing to interchange with NHN, you do realize NHN doesn't operate on the MD right? Had things progressed there would've been a new railroad created to handle freight operations, with interchange taking place directly with CSX in the Portland area. But that's all moot now anyways.

As for the Conway Branch, NHN would be handling any and all freight on the Conway Branch, you can't have another short line operator interchanging with another short line operator there would be no money in it, but again it's all about to become moot anyways because NHN isn't interested, and the rails are likely going to be pulled up for a trail. As for the Conway Scenic being interested, I guess will just have to wait and see but without NHN, they have a tall mountain to climb. Getting NHN support is the key factor in all of this, without NHN it doesn't matter if state law says that rail takes precedence, you have 4 state legislatures supporting a measure that would bring in a rail-trail, it's kind of hard for DOT to advance the Conway Scenic's interest, when the hand that feeds you want's a trail. NHN is the key to all of it, without their support the Conway Scenic doesn't have a ground to stand on.

The bus company you mentioned, was purchased late last year, they will be shuttling passengers from Portland to N. Conway to ride the Mountaineer, which doesn't operate in the winter, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

7470, is or was waiting for the arrival of the new crown sheet, when that arrives, they have a contractor that is going to weld it in place, I'm not sure where they are in that process.

As for 501, they'll work on it when time and money allow, unfortunately the repairs to 7470 are eating up a lot of their steam funds, so expect delays.

As for the open-air car be converted, are you joking?

[Goddraug]

To a previous point, there seems to be a decent amount of NHN employees interested based on Facebook interactions. Maybe one of them could change management's minds?