Conference Car 9800

DanD3815 wrote:speaking of 9800 are there any good interior shots of this car around? i can't seem to find any, same with 10001.

http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtCONTROL/amt9800b.jpg

http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtCONTROL/amt9800c.jpg

http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtCONTROL/amt9800d.jpg

cool thanks matt

If the Keystone cab cars had its front end like the 9800 I wouldnt mind them so much. Im 6' 2 and have problems sitting in the seat properly. Its very cramped and the window is low so I have to squat a bit to see out the front and when you're rolling along at 125, that front end leaks air fierocioulsy and therefore I cant seem to hear the cab signals when they drop. I find it odd that it has an independent brake although I wish the current cabs had this so that I could bail the engine brakes off when in push mode as the blended brake can be harsh at times.

I doubt the independent brake handle controlled independent on engine as cars do not have those airlines
It looks more like cab car 9800 was set up with a independent brake.

To clarify on the issue of removing the controls: A cab car with controls is considered a locomotive for the purposes of FRA inspections, and thus must be inspected more frequently and rigorously - as much as a powered locomotive. If the cab car is regularly used to turn trains quickly, the added inspections make sense because the cab car is useful. For old cab cars such as those on Metra and the 9800, they are rarely if ever used to pilot trains, so it's not worth the cost of extra inspections. Once the locomotive-type inspections have lapsed, it is against federal regulations to use the cab car to pilot the train, thus the controls are useless. The controls are then removed and can be used as parts for another cab car.

DutchRailnut wrote:I doubt the independent brake handle controlled independent on engine as cars do not have those airlines
It looks more like cab car 9800 was set up with a independent brake.

I understand the amcal cars have an independent brake and also the bailoff ring bails off the engine brakes from the cab car. I don't know since I don't run out there or qualified on the equipment. There's no reason why if the 9800 Had an independent brake that it couldnt bail off the brakes of an AEM7 because the aem7s has its brakes bailed off electronically.

What meets the definition of removing the controls? Do you have to gut the entire space or just disable their functionality or something in between? 9800 would be pretty slick as a PV cab car after retirement, especially if duded up in original Metroliner colors or perhaps the Phase III with the big AMTRAK.

I don't think "remove" is a defined term. I don't have the regs at hand, but it's my impression that you simply cannot lead a train with a cab car that is not current on locomotive-style inspections. A railroad is a place that has enough regulations in place that likely all you need is a bulletin or notice to the effect that 9800 isn't to lead until further notice. I'll defer to the pros around here if I'm off.

Sometimes, to make it certain, the controls can be disconnected, locked out, or removed in part or in whole. That said, I don't believe it's necessary to disconnect or remove controls. If one were to use a non-current cab car to lead a train, there would be some career longevity questions asked of either the person responsible.

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:

DutchRailnut wrote:I doubt the independent brake handle controlled independent on engine as cars do not have those airlines
It looks more like cab car 9800 was set up with a independent brake.

I understand the amcal cars have an independent brake and also the bailoff ring bails off the engine brakes from the cab car. I don't know since I don't run out there or qualified on the equipment. There's no reason why if the 9800 Had an independent brake that it couldnt bail off the brakes of an AEM7 because the aem7s has its brakes bailed off electronically.

Unless there is some way to send a "bail off" command from the cab car to the engine (thru the 27 pin trainline?), it isn't possible to accomplish with pneumatics only. The only air hoses hooked up to the cab car are the brake pipe and main reservoir. You would need a third air line running along the train.

The F40-NPCU's have an independent brake as well, and bailing it off only causes the brakes on the NPCU to release. There isn't really any reason you would want to do this, unless the wheels are sliding.

Jersey_Mike wrote:What meets the definition of removing the controls? Do you have to gut the entire space or just disable their functionality or something in between? 9800 would be pretty slick as a PV cab car after retirement, especially if duded up in original Metroliner colors or perhaps the Phase III with the big AMTRAK.

Mike in regards to this specific car and we can refer to the earlier linked picture for reference (http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtCONTROL/amt9800b.jpg), if you look at the white flat space on the left, that is essentially how it looks all the way across the width of the car, leaving no indication of there ever being controls, and no provisions to really put them back. The little peninsula with all of the buttons and switches on it is gone, and the seat is gone. All of the stuff like cabs, indicator lights, speedometers is all gone. The whole thing just completely gutted. Smooth surfaces everywhere.

While this may not be necessary for every deactivation of cab cars they obviously did this with no intentions of restoring the car to a functioning cab car as the whole cab is basically just desk space with no chairs. The only thing that remains showing it was a cab is the vertical slide down window for the engineer to poke his head out but I never opened it so I can't say for sure if its been secured shut permanently or left usable. That's really about it...


Davis

WABCO never made a pneumatic 30CDW brake valve without the independent portion on it... it normally only controls a "parking brake" feature that applies brake cylinder pressure to the lead truck of the cab car, much like the little black knob in the metroliner cab cars. Go ahead and use it on the road at speed. Many an engineer has.

Unless its a really, really, really great idea to be able to bail off BC pressure from the cab car (which it's not) no one will ever see pneumatic actuating hoses piped through every passenger car in the US (not to mention air brake principles that make it pretty much impossible without extremely expensive upgrades to the cars themselves), nor will every locomotive, diesel or electric, in the US be outfitted with an actuating feature through the MU jumper - at least until the next generation. The wheels on the engines have been getting burned up since cab cars were introduced.

Eric , mike and others. I'm an Amtrak engineer and know how the equipment works. I said theoretically the AEM7s can run with a cab car and have its brakes bailed off because the A's have the brake actuated electronically and not pneumatically. The A's don't even have an actuating hose. Here on the NEC we bail off the engine brakes. We do it for cab signal drops and station stops and it doesn't scare us. It provides for smoother train handling as the blended brake on the electrics can be a bit harsh.

I'm an Amtrak engineer, too, Mr. Silverliner... I may not run on the high-speed Corridor, and I don't know anything about the AEM7, but I do have an understanding about how push-pull works. I am also all too familiar with the behavior of blended brake while operating in push mode. The question I meant to posit in my previous post was - how do you design a cab car such that everything it does - including operation of the independent brake and the actuating feature - behaves exactly as if the engine were leading instead? Sure, it's theoretically possible, but the way current equipment is designed, it isn't.

Any passenger engineer with any common sense will bail the independent, when necessary, for better train handling. That's assuming that you're running from the engine. Like I said before, there isn't really any reason to bail the independent on a cab car (if equipped) if you can help it. It will just cause undesired slack action between the cab car and the rest of the train.

No matter what kind of engine you're running, isn't it usually best (while power-braking) to bail off only the first service, and then let the BC build up on subsequent sets? I realize that cab signal drops require immediate movement of the ABV to Suppression, without having the option of doing a split reduction, so keeping the engine brakes bailed off makes sense in that case. But why would you keep the BC bailed off for station stops? All you're doing then is diminishing your braking effort. You certainly know that engine brakes are quite a bit more powerful than car brakes, so if you want to be able to stop more quickly, why not let the engine brakes build up after the first service?

Most of us - myself included - tend to forget that PUSH mode implies that the slack should be bunched most of the time, while PULL mode implies that it should be stretched. Even today I still have my fair share of rough starts in push mode. Controlling the slack requires a lot more forethought when the power source is someplace other than where you are physically sitting. Not only is it difficult to shift the mindset, but there's also the fact that engines behave differently than cars. The brake cylinder pressure on the trailing engine responds (almost) directly to changes in brake pipe pressure. The cars, on the other hand, allow you to "piss the air away" much more easily.

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:Eric , mike and others. I'm an Amtrak engineer and know how the equipment works. I said theoretically the AEM7s can run with a cab car and have its brakes bailed off because the A's have the brake actuated electronically and not pneumatically. The A's don't even have an actuating hose. Here on the NEC we bail off the engine brakes. We do it for cab signal drops and station stops and it doesn't scare us. It provides for smoother train handling as the blended brake on the electrics can be a bit harsh.

No wonder it takes you guys so dang long to get into and out of stations, you are releasing a good portion of your braking power!

......and ive heard Amtrak guys moaning at NJT guys for being too slow into and out of stations! HAHAHA

(kidding Budd - well kinda....)

JT what do you mean it take us so long to get into and out of a station? We dont run commuter trains and therefore don't come flying into a station by standing them up and sitting them down, especially if its a Long distance train with sleepers or diners. We don't get taught to run like that although we do have guys who came from commuter(myself included) who can run fast and hard and actually care about the ride back there and it still is smooth. The slower speeds coming into a station stems from the air already being used for the cab drops before many of stations such as Trenton or Metro Park and many guys would hold back a bit to let the air build back up or the instance of our air brake book says that if you had your brakes on before a station stop, to not release all of your brakes to ensure that you will have brakes for the stop.Well something to that effect,Hahaha. We aren't spoiled with the EP assist and electric hold like you guys that can hit a station at 70mph and stop where you want to. When I say we like to bail off the brakes at a station stop, that means bailing a minimum. You will still get the blend but its partial and not harsh. Hell some guys will bail ALL the brakes off. I've seen one guy doing that for even the high speed stops at 110-125 without the diverting signals before the stations like new carrolton, BWI, Aberdeen, Newark Delaware . I'm not that adventurous but I will bail a minimum and still have brakes applied on the locomotive. The DC guys are way laid back and slow anyways. You should hang out at some of the high speed stops and you wouldnt be thinking we are coming in to slow.Also most if not all of our motors have been neutered and don't take off as fast as they use to and takes a lil bit longer to get up to speed. I think because of that, the HHP's have been pulling better and smoother. The dc motors are old and tired and maybe that was a way to save the motors for awhile longer before the replacements show up. EricL, I keep forgetting about the train being bunched when in pull and when I was talking about a hyperthetical way to bail from the cab car to the AEM7, it would be for cab drops etc . On the NEC, Im not a big fan of push pull unless its a DC meatball as the take off much smoother and you can move your throttle out or back as fast as you would like without feeling the draft or buff forces. The Remans are horrendous.