• Another derailment... Jamaica 11/23

  • Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.
Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

Moderator: Liquidcamphor

  by LongIslandTool
 
At the risk of speculating cause, there are several ways this most recent wreck could have occurred. Tool looked over the mess yesterday afternoon and has his opinions, which he has learned to reserve until the investigation's done. But here are the possibilities:

A switch could have been picked, either because of a track condition or equipment condition. The track in Jamaica generally is some of the best in the country and the M-7's are in also in pretty good condition.

It could have been a catastrophic failure of a track or mechanical component, like a broken rail, wheel or something falling off equipment or switch. This would be determined from physical inspection and M-7 event recorder files.

The switch could have gone over under the train. This would require a clear failure of the machine's interlocking, which is virtually impossible with the 1911 equipment in the interlocking. A new, problem-and-reliability-plagued electronic system is being installed and its temporary interface caused a similar incident in March, but a repeat of that should be unlikely. A good examination of the switch points and any event records would determine this. When picked, there is wear, breakage or marks on the points.

Train handling could have been faulty. While the Railroad's training department no longer discusses slack and buff actions with new engineers the effect of slack in the handling on MU's is minimal, making this not a likely cause. The location and grade makes train handling an unlikely cause though not one to ever be ruled out, and this could be examined on the event recorder records. Yet another new railroad spokesman said "The engineer did not appear to be speeding". Stupid remark by an inexperienced political hack.

Of course there is always the very unlikely possibility of vandalism, which is often thrown about simply to avoid official responsibility but almost never a valid cause here on the LIRR. The police usually press to immediately and correctly rule this out.

There's the preliminary list. Bosses from Transportation, M of E, Signal and Track must now look at the evidence and agree on a cause or fight off allegations between them. Often it's immediately clear, though sometimes it requires hours or days of investigation. No Track or Signal boss was on the property and none would report to work Sunday, so the investigation is being hampered.

As of 7:24 the wreck crew has not yet arrived at Jamaica, having declined, along with the rest of the restoration teams, calls for them to turn out on overtime during the past 18 hours. It is unprecedented in modern times that morale is so low emergency workers would not report in an emergency. But they have been publicly demeaned by President Williams over the past months in the media for working overtime.

There was small discussion among upper management of bringing in a subway or MetroNorth wreck crew, but it was dismissed as silly and of little benefit the few with any sense who were consulted.
  by kmart
 
I'm sure Marge Simpson can single handedly rectify this latest mess,after all,shes taking all the credit for the on time performance.
  by diffusedmind
 
Clearly i'm no expert in railroad wrecks, but how would the derailed car be moved out of the way in this case? It traverses track 6 and 7, plus there is the derailed car that is partially platformed on 6. Is there some sort of super counterweighted crane that they bring in to lift the car up and rerail it?
  by LongIslandTool
 
Yes, the LIRR has is a 100 ton crane that operates on rail or road. Most likely it will be used. The M-7's have sockets for a lifting hook under the headlamp shrouds. Lifting and swinging with a crane is usually the fastest method to get something like this cleared.

There is also a jack that can be placed under end of the car which lifts it and can slide it over a few feet at a time.

Another way to re-rail a car without much equipment would be to jack it up, build a track under it, and pull it back onto its route.
  by hammerfang
 
I can't believe the wreck wasn't cleared this morning. I rode through Jamaica around 7:40 today and the track was still fouled. I did see MP15s 150 and 167 on the west end of the accident hooked up to two M7s but it didn't look like much was being done. I certainly hope that this incident wakes some people up to issues the LIRR faces. It is unbelieveable that the LIRR crews wouldn't come to clear the wreck. I don't care if they feel like they have gotten bad press in the past few months, they are not a bunch of 5 year old brats (despite acting as such), if you have a job you do it, no ifs, ands, or buts. If they feel they have received bad press just wait till everyone finds out about this stunt. That is not to say that LIRR management doesn't need a slap accross the face, but come on people this is unreasonable.
  by bingdude
 
There must be some really bad blood between management and the rank and file over there. Something's gotta give...
  by LongIslandTool
 
You have a job to do when you are at work, not on your day off.

When the company president calls you a "greedy thief" in Newsday for working overtime, you'd have to be out of your mind to accept an overtime call.
  by Otto Vondrak
 
LongIslandTool wrote:There was small discussion among upper management of bringing in a subway or Metro-North wreck crew, but it was dismissed as silly and of little benefit the few with any sense who were consulted.
Let's pretend that the North White Plains wreck crew came in. How would that work? Never mind that they are both MTA agencies, could a MN crew legally perform work on the LIRR?
  by diffusedmind
 
Otto Vondrak wrote:
LongIslandTool wrote:There was small discussion among upper management of bringing in a subway or Metro-North wreck crew, but it was dismissed as silly and of little benefit the few with any sense who were consulted.
Let's pretend that the North White Plains wreck crew came in. How would that work? Never mind that they are both MTA agencies, could a MN crew legally perform work on the LIRR?
I was thinking more along the lines that the unions would poop their pants if that happened.
  by hammerfang
 
LongIslandTool wrote:You have a job to do when you are at work, not on your day off.

When the company president calls you a "greedy thief" in Newsday for working overtime, you'd have to be out of your mind to accept an overtime call.
Clearing up a wreck at the major hub for the world busiest commuter railroad is a job that should be done ASAP. Williams was wrong for bad mouthing her employees and I understand that they are angry with her. However, I do not feel that justifies taking out their anger on their customers, the commuters. It is this attitude of "let someone else take care of it" and "we'll do it on our time" that is screwing over the big 3 in Detroit. I just wish that the country wakes up soon enough to realize that unions are relics of the past and need to be redmodeled for the 21st century.
  by DutchRailnut
 
The MNCR wreck crew has assisted before on LIRR, but to use them as primary crew, due to labor problems, would have triggered a systemwide strike on LIRR.
  by LongIslandTool
 
Ahh, most efficient A-23 Unit... Dave is down with Flash...

Otto, certainly the White Plains crew could come down and do the work.

They would need a Long Island pilot if they went on the tracks and would need flag protection from the Track Department, using LIRR Track Department employees. If no Track Department employees were available to flag, they could use other engineering employees such as Communications or Signal. In the event that they were not available, they could use LI Conductors or Engineers. After exhausting those options, qualified managers could be used.

Union contracts require certain Long Island crafts to do certain jobs. If ALL men have been called and asked to work and turned down the work, anyone on the railroad, or an outside contractor, such as your White Plains gang, could be called and used.

The true logistics here is the travel time, set up time and the extra time needed by men unfamiliar with the area and maybe the equipment. The availability of materials would be limited as well as the availability of additional personnel. It is also understandable that some Long Island forces would be apprehensive about working with or for an individual from another entity whom they didn't know.

For example, Tool would never climb under a load if he didn't personally know the operator of the crane supporting that load and the condition of the crane, cables and straps. Most workers would probably feel the same way.

In an emergency, the Company can simply disregard all contracts and use whomever they wanted, though later they would be called on to explain the actions and possible pay monetary penalties to the rightful workers. An emergency is deemed an event not caused by the Company's failure, so this would probably not be considered an emergency for contractual purposes.

A quick answer to your inquiry Otto, is that outside forces can be used if the work is turned down by all qualified Long Island forces or the recovery was a legitimate emergency.
Last edited by LongIslandTool on Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by Sirsonic
 
I hope the involved unions get the word to the media somehow for the reasons why nobody would answer the call to work overtime. The blame for this disaster should be placed on LIRR management where it rightfully belongs. You cant slander your employees one day and expect them to bail you out the next.
  by BobLI
 
I'm sure the media would find some way to fault the union workers for not replying promptly to the emergency.
There allways a way to slant a story to put "Us against Them".
On another note, overtime isnt mandatory, so if a worker is unavailable its hard to prove he didnt want to report to work.
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