Amtrak on the Florida East Coast FEC Jacksonville - Miami

Well perhaps the solution there would be to name the FEC-NYP service a different name entirely and run it like the Texas Eagle and Sunset do from San Antonio westward. It's a bit different because both the Sunset and TE do not originate at the same city, but beyond that I don't see much difference.

Several things here: Tampa is a big market and it is likely to stay that way as long as reasonable service is maintained there and I think that will be the case. There is no longer a maintenance facility for Amtrak in Tampa and in order to set one up it would probably cost more than to just operate the train on down to Miami and serve that market even if it is only one train a day. I do not have any more information at this time than anybody else on here but the way I see this is the Meteor running north and south on the FEC as a through train between New York and Miami and the Star remaining on its present route. They might decide to split one train at Jacksonville but that would cost more even though it would provide two round trips on the FEC and maybe three round trips to Miami. The FEC will cooperate with Amtrak and the state to establish/re-establish passenger train service along its route up and down the east coast of Florida but it will not allow anything to interfere with its large and profitable freight operations which are number one on its list. There may be capacity issues but I think they can be worked out if level heads prevail. Running the Meteor on the FEC would likely save on the operating costs of that particular train and open up a big market as well, Amtrak wants to serve that market, the FEC is willing to cooperate, the state is interested, let's hope something comes of this before too much longer.
Noel Weaver

The drawback to the scenario outlined by Mr. Weaver (Meteor via FEC south Jacksonville; Star on current route via Orlando and Tampa) is that it would reduce service to Orlando to one a day. Orlando is the biggest ridership generator for the Silver Service trains Amtrak in Florida (179k in FY 2011). While I recognize that Tampa produces somewhat comparable ridership (140k) on one-a-day service, I think Amtrak would be very reluctant to reduce service to Orlando.

At the same time, Mr. Weaver's point about the expense of reestablishing a maintenance base at Tampa is well taken. There is, however, already an Amtrak maintenance base at Sanford, just north of Orlando, for the Auto Train. I wonder--if the Meteor were rerouted to the FEC, would it be feasible to run a section of the train from Jacksonville to Orlando (maintained at Sanford) to continue twice a day service to the Land of the Mouse? That would still result in a reduction of service from Miami, Ft. Lauderdale and West Palm to once a day, but would othewise maintain current service levels, plus add service to the east coast north of West Palm.

Having ridden the Roanoke Chapter NRHS' recent Fall Excursion, I can say for a fact that Amtrak has the power and coaches & lounges to operate the FEC as a daylight Amfleet train with two six-car trainsets and a spare locomotive. That isn't counting the Horizon cars that remain available.

I also think an extension of the Palmetto to Jacksonville arriving between 11pm and midnight then overnight servicing it for a mid-morning departure at 9:30am to Miami would work well too adding the equipment above to the route. All Amtrak would have to make sure they DO NOT do is call the extension to MIA by the same name. Giving it a new name south of JAX would justify the Palmetto and the new northbound "terminating" at Jacksonville in the traveling public's eye. Nothing says that Amtrak has to share the fact that anyone could destinate any stop along the FEC or travel through to Miami with an eight to nine hour layover at Jacksonville with a 9:30am departure on the same trainset as long as they book it as two separate trains! A northbound departing MIA approximately 9:30am and arriving JAX at 4:30pm could be likewise overnighted and depart there at sunrise as the Palmetto and still keep its schedule at Savannah.

If the reader hasn't already noticed, this scenario would eliminate any turning of trainsets at Jacksonville. There is plenty of room for two trains side-by-side at JAX between midnight and 6:00am to be refueled, cleaned and restocked without interfering with northbound Star and Meteor calls

Once the Viewliner II cars become available, adding a sleeper to the consist (ala the Cardinal), but otherwise used as a daylight first class lounge could be an extra perk for passengers who want to lay over in their bed. Even the benefit of a dining car on the train would be a no brainer. (I've always thought they should have one on the Palmetto anyway.) Those Miami destinated passengers not in a hurry, but wanting to catch the next train out, can still sleep in a rented bed, or just wait and catch the southbound Star at 7:05am or the Meteor at 9:48am.

Granted, Jacksonville is not what one would call a Florida Tourist Mecca, but I'm sure Amtrak and local Chambers of Commerce, business councils, etc could encourage use of area restaurants, shopping and entertainment maybe even providing safe shuttles to them. Northbound passengers not catching the Silver trains and choosing to daylight travel on the Palmetto the next day would have an especially long layover so such an arrangement would be beneficial to them. Heck, Amtrak could even contract with or open a motel near or next to the station for coach travelers going through JAX who want an abbreviated sleep with a guaranteed wake up call from Amtrak personnel so they can make their connection.

Champlain, at that point you might as well just run a normal corridor service with dedicated equipment and cut out the unreliability that comes with running long distance trains. And I have a feeling that even though Amtrak can throw some equipment at an excursion train for a couple days, that does not mean they have that spare capacity year round.

To everyone else, I don't think anyone will be dumb enough to reduce Orlando to a once daily train and remove the only direct connection between Orlando and Miami. I think more likely is that per the PIP report, the Silver Star will split at Jacksonville. Slightly less likely is the possibility of running a standalone, connecting Jacksonville to Miami corridor train.

If it were up to me, I would have the Silver Star split at Jacksonville and have the western branch terminate in Tampa and have a standalone corridor train run between Tampa and Miami (after all, the only reason the Silver Star deviates that far is to serve that market).

If it were up to me, I would have the Silver Star split at Jacksonville and have the western branch terminate in Tampa and have a standalone corridor train run between Tampa and Miami (after all, the only reason the Silver Star deviates that far is to serve that market).

Complaint from Winterhaven, already reduced from three to two.

george matthews wrote:

If it were up to me, I would have the Silver Star split at Jacksonville and have the western branch terminate in Tampa and have a standalone corridor train run between Tampa and Miami (after all, the only reason the Silver Star deviates that far is to serve that market).

Complaint from Winterhaven, already reduced from three to two.

It would still be two -- Silver Meteor plus the Tampa-Miami corridor train.

What every happened to the route of the Silver Palm which went on an inland route to the west cost (via Gainsville, Univ of FL), this seemed much more logical than the current back up move that the Silver Star uses every day.

Station Aficionado wrote:The drawback to the scenario outlined by Mr. Weaver (Meteor via FEC south Jacksonville; Star on current route via Orlando and Tampa) is that it would reduce service to Orlando to one a day. Orlando is the biggest ridership generator for the Silver Service trains Amtrak in Florida (179k in FY 2011). While I recognize that Tampa produces somewhat comparable ridership (140k) on one-a-day service, I think Amtrak would be very reluctant to reduce service to Orlando.

At the same time, Mr. Weaver's point about the expense of reestablishing a maintenance base at Tampa is well taken. There is, however, already an Amtrak maintenance base at Sanford, just north of Orlando, for the Auto Train. I wonder--if the Meteor were rerouted to the FEC, would it be feasible to run a section of the train from Jacksonville to Orlando (maintained at Sanford) to continue twice a day service to the Land of the Mouse? That would still result in a reduction of service from Miami, Ft. Lauderdale and West Palm to once a day, but would othewise maintain current service levels, plus add service to the east coast north of West Palm.

That would tie in nicely to plans to extend the capitol ltd to Florida . Run it to Orlando , ( as part of the star or meteor ) , service it at Sanford , and return from there .

David Benton wrote: That would tie in nicely to plans to extend the capitol ltd to Florida . Run it to Orlando , ( as part of the star or meteor ) , service it at Sanford , and return from there .

Wat plan to run Capitol to Florida? There is neither any serious plan nor enough equipment to run the Cap to Florida except in fantasyland.

NOBODY knows just what will happen when and if Amtrak begins operation between Jacksonville and Miami via the Florida East Coast. The management does not even know what will happen. As for Tampa, the reason trains do not tie up there is that Amtrak closed the servicing facility some years ago. It is cheaper to just run the train on down to Miami and service and maintain the equipment at Hialeah. I personally think if they run a second train out of Jacksonville toward Orlando that second train will terminate at Orlando and return to Sanford where there are facilities for servicing the equipment. Any decisions as to what actually takes place will be made by Amtrak and not the State of Florida which does not pay for any of the operations in Florida.
Noel Weaver

The PRIIA reports have dabbled a couple of times with extending the Capitol Limited to Florida as Superliner train. Amtrak even was considering this when the Capitol Limited was converted to a Superliner train with the delivery of Superliner II cars in the early to mid-1990s. However, all has been ruled out over the years because various reports have shown that a "transfer of passengers" from a NYP to WAS train to a train to/from Florida would not produce favorable results. However, if Amtrak retains the Meteor and Star in its current form, but nearly "adds" the Capitol Limited as an extension to Florida, I would think that this would be a plus and not disrupt the NYP to WAS passenger flow to Florida that drastically. And for that matter, Amtrak could even run some Amfleet II's from NYP to WAS that could then be tacked on or removed from the Capitol Limited at Washington DC. This would necessitate re-positioning the Trans-Dorm sleeper so as to provide access from the single level train to the Superliner train. Sleeping car passengers could be "moved" or "removed" from the NYP section at Washington DC during a layover. There's probably other options if Amtrak was creative. The loss of the Silver Palm as a NYP to Miami train was even significant I think. And it's terminus should at least be Jacksonville, not Savannah.

hi55us wrote:What every happened to the route of the Silver Palm which went on an inland route to the west cost (via Gainsville, Univ of FL), this seemed much more logical than the current back up move that the Silver Star uses every day.

No more Amtrak use of CSX's "S" line since 2004. Believe that route is gone forever, given the SunRail project over the "A" line, and the proposed diversion by CSX of just about all its freight movements to the "S" line in the future. My town is now served by Ambus for the last 7 years.

Noel Weaver wrote:NOBODY knows just what will happen when and if Amtrak begins operation between Jacksonville and Miami via the Florida East Coast. The management does not even know what will happen. As for Tampa, the reason trains do not tie up there is that Amtrak closed the servicing facility some years ago. It is cheaper to just run the train on down to Miami and service and maintain the equipment at Hialeah. I personally think if they run a second train out of Jacksonville toward Orlando that second train will terminate at Orlando and return to Sanford where there are facilities for servicing the equipment. Any decisions as to what actually takes place will be made by Amtrak and not the State of Florida which does not pay for any of the operations in Florida.
Noel Weaver

I doubt if Florida is providing $118 million of state funding to restore service to the FEC solely so Amtrak can run a LD train service over the route at Amtrak's whim. FL will have control over the corridor trains and schedule on the FEC in coordination with Amtrak, figuring Amtrak runs the corridor trains. I would expect, that in return for putting up state money for the FEC, that FL is likely to require Amtrak to provide minimum levels of LD train service to Miami, namely 2 trains a day, so long as the LD trains run in the state of Florida.

I don't see why Amtrak would terminate one of the Slivers in Orlando, as the top city pairs list for both the Star and Meteor show that they both get a fair amount of in state traffic. Looks like both trains have a lot of passengers get off and on in Orlando, freeing up space for passengers traveling north of or to/from stations south of Orlando. Why lose that revenue?

What is not clear to me is how much Florida can accomplish with the $118 million of state funding. If they need additional federal funding to complete the project, that will be hard to come by in the next several years. On the other hand, the FL application for FEC project for the FY10 HSIPR funds asked for $250 million for phase 1 - which does not have a detailed breakdown of the $250 million in the part I have, refers to a need for 24 vehicles, some of which may were to have been purchased withe part of the $250 million. So, perhaps FL can make all the needed track and connection improvements for $118 million and service can start in 2015, provided Amtrak is able to provide the equipment for 2 daily trains over the FEC: a LD train and a state funded corridor train service. The 2011 PRIIA PIP report for the Silvers discusses the benefits of the FEC route for the Silver Start (+$7.9 million in revenue) and the liability agreement issue that has to be addressed.

The earliest date for FEC service is now 2015, so Amtrak and FL have a lot of time to work out the details and for Amtrak to figure out when and where they want to run the trains. By 2015, most, if not all, of the Viewliner IIs should be in service along with many new corridor bi-level cars in the mid-west, providing capacity and greater flexibility over what Amtrak has now.

I think the state money is for start up and not for operating costs. Florida might be putting up money for stations, parking, property or railroad improvements but I do not think they are putting up anything for the actual operating costs. If this is the case then the decisions regarding number of trains, routes etc will be up to Amtrak.
Noel Weaver