Amtrak on the Florida East Coast FEC Jacksonville - Miami

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http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20New ... 20FEC.aspx


Liability issue next for Amtrak service on FEC
Published: January 6, 2012
COCOA, Fla. – Before passenger service can be inaugurated along Florida’s East Coast, the state will have to pass legislation approving liability protection for Amtrak on state-owned tracks from West Palm Beach to Miami, the Treasure Coast Palm reported.

Florida State Rail Manager J. Fred Wise said this might be the year the Florida Legislature approves the liability protection for Amtrak. That’s the top issue that needs to be ironed out, he said, before Amtrak will agree to bring passenger service to the Florida East Coast Railway route.

GBN You can be opposed to service on the FEC as much as you want but your argument about the market does not hold water one bit. Population in the area of the present route between Orlando and West Palm Beach is pretty sparse. Winter Haven and Sebring are the only two staffed stations and one train stops at Okeechobee. It is over 100 miles between Sebring and West Palm Beach with nothing but open spaces for the most part. Compare this with the resorts and populations on the East Coast and there is no comparison. To say nothing of the reduced running times, reduced fuel consumption and other operating expenses and service to a whole new population base, this is a no brainer.
To close I will say that the feeling at all levels is now that it is not a question of "if" but rather "when". I am convinced that it will happen, its only a matter of time.
I did not intend to "ruffle feathers" but rather to stress that at this point NOBODY KNOWS how this is actually going to work out. As most of you know I strongly favor this move, the FEC is a far better route to Miami than the present route is or ever was. I am sorry that a few do not see it that way. I have ridden the FEC and it is a wonderful railroad passing through growing and important points with a huge potential for passenger traffic, the line is in fantastic condition good for high speeds with only some changes to the crossing protection at some locations and addition of passenger stations. There is probably ample track capacity for a couple of Amtrak trains each way and with the existance of cab signals and train contral already in place the line will be capable of some pretty high speeds. As it is now the line is one of the smoothest pieces of railroad that I have ever ridden anywhere at any time. We were traveling 79 MPH in some places and if I hadn't had a speed indicator right next to me I would have never known it. Just a guess on my part but I would be willing to bet that WHEN Amtrak goes to the FEC that the on time performance on the FEC portion of the trip will be the best of any freight railroad anywhere, they run their freight trains on time too. There are some mighty good railroaders on this railroad from the top down.
Noel Weaver

I think it holds a political benefit too, as service on the FEC should finally get Florida into the state supported corridor business. Florida has been marred by a back and forth battle between rail advocates and opposers for decades especially on the high speed rail front, and the result is that next to nothing has happened. There has been some improvements on commuter rail though as that seems to have avoided the large ideological battles. Getting a state supported intercity corridor running might pave the way for more in a state that should have very good condtions for it considering the population size and the relatively concentrated settling pattern.

Champlain, I pretty much agree with everything you've said in this thread. However, I think it would be foolish to divert a train from Orlando. Orlando Metropolitan area stations combine for 290,000 passengers and South Florida stations combine for 300,000 passengers annually making Orlando the second biggest Amtrak destination just behind South Florida. It would be silly to reduce frequency for service to Orlando to just one train daily from the north. In addition, that leaves just one train between Florida's two biggest destinations which means Amtrak would have to choose either to either keep the Tampa jog and back and increase travel times to 6 hours between Orlando and South Florida or to cut Tampa and Lakeland out completely and lose 164,000 passengers (third biggest destination in Florida), both of which are far from ideal. Ideally, the FEC train would just be a corridor train with a connection in Jacksonville, but failing that should be a section split from one of the silver trains. Extending the Palmetto is always an option but with the current scheduling would mean the Jacksonville-Miami segment would be done in the middle of the night. Rescheduling it defeats the point of the train which is to provide a pseudo-regional daylight service between the eastern Carolinas and the NEC (kind of like the service the Carolinian provides for North Carolina). Losing this wouldn't be the biggest loss in the world but it's still a loss.
Also I disagree the stations you mention are in danger of being closed down due to FEC service -- they are there because they are communities in their own right and not just transfer points for people from the coast.

Trainviews, this would not be a state supported corridor. Florida is just funding the capital expenditures necessary to run trains on the FEC.

Is there a railroad line between Orlando , and the FEC . seems to me a Jackonsville - Orlando - FEC routing would be ideal .

David Benton wrote:Is there a railroad line between Orlando , and the FEC . seems to me a Jackonsville - Orlando - FEC routing would be ideal .

Here's a 1948 rail map of Florida. None of those connections exist anymore but even if they did, the trains would still have to jaunt over to Orlando and you would miss a good amount of the FEC market.

David Benton wrote:Is there a railroad line between Orlando , and the FEC . seems to me a Jackonsville - Orlando - FEC routing would be ideal .

Well, the direct answer to your question is yes, there is a place where the existing CSX from Orlando to Miami does cross and a connnection could be built to either the FEC or some kind of connecting railroad on the northeast shore of lake Okeechobee:
http://g.co/maps/3mydn
However, to turn northeast and run to just south of Fort Pierce then turn south toward Miami wouldn't buy you anything other than a fancy excursion train running through Sugarcane(?) fields.
I do agree though that service shouldn't be subtracted from Orlando, but at this point, I don't know where the equipment would come from for FEC service.

Instead of splitting a Silver train (probably the Star) at Jacksonville, how about the East Coast Champion* corridor train starts and ends at Savannah? If Georgia and CSX played along, it would make operations a lot easier.

The Champion can start southward at Savannah each morning at 7 am, giving connecting Palmetto passengers a decent night's sleep in a hotel. The train would be right on the markers of the Silver Star, and in fact Savannah, Jesup and Jacksonville would be transfer points from the Star to the Champion. At Jacksonville, the Star would hold for the Champion to catch up, just in case any passengers wanted to transfer the other way. Then, the trains would go their separate ways - the Star for Orlando, Tampa and Miami, and the Champion direct to Miami. The Champion would arrive at 4 or 4:30 pm, assuming a 6 hour ride along the FEC and CSX.

On the way north, assuming that same 6ish hour schedule (is this correct, Mr. Weaver?), the Champion could start from Miami at 3 pm, arrive at JAX at 9:30 pm, and beat the Meteor to Savannah by an hour and a half - about 12 midnight. Again, enough time for the intrepid traveler to sleep overnight and catch the Piedmont at 8 am the next day if they choose not to connect to the Silver Star.


* Of the original train names, this one sounds the best to my ears!

I don't think there is any way that Amtrak is going to turn their back on either Orlando nor Tampa, they recognize the good market in both cities for their service. I think they want to expand their market in Florida and better serve South Florida which a routing on the Florida East Coast will accomplish.
Noel Weaver

trainmaster611 wrote:
Trainviews, this would not be a state supported corridor. Florida is just funding the capital expenditures necessary to run trains on the FEC.

As far as I have understood it the plan is to do both. One LD and a supplementary corridor giving it two frequencies per day?

While I still hold that Amtrak should simply leave its existing Florida service as is for the reasons I set forth earlier, I will respect the position taken here by Mr. Trainview that population concentrates along coastlines and that concentration overrides that our friends to the East with sharp teeth are more interested starring on Discovery Channel than riding trains. I also respect Messrs. Shivik and Weaver's continued support of the reroute, even if I myself am not a fellow advocate.

I am also prepared to accept that operating economies will result owing to the shorter route, however those savings may not be overnight in so far as labor costs go. There could well be negotiated a "phase out' for T&E (or at least if I were a U2 or BLE GC, I'd give it a shot) that would allow any employee holding a regular assignment on a rerouted train to continue earning pay calculated as if that train were routed over the SAL (S-Line in apparently official CSXese). The OBS employees could also be knocking at the door as well for similar protection.

Regarding the liability issue, if anything more favorable to the FEC arises from the ongoing negotiations, it will just one more "chipping' at the underlying self indemnification that prevails to my best knowledge between Amtrak and the roads holding operating contracts. The earlier linked TRAINS Newswire material does not provide enough detail in order to draw any conclusions.

Finally, regarding Mr. Trainview's immediate thought, I have to wonder at what level would the second "corridor' frequency be funded. There will be no new Federally funded routes or frequencies - a doctrine that has stood since the Bush administration. So far as State funding goes, need we address at this topic how train friendly Tallahassee has been of late? So far as adopting a model of County level funding as exists for Tri-Rail (and planned for SunRail), good luck getting the nine on-line counties (did I count 'em right?) to impose the required "ear marked" tax (a "Sales Tax" in the case of Tri-Rail) in order to obtain matching State level funds.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Finally, regarding Mr. Trainview's immediate thought, I have to wonder at what level would the second "corridor' frequency be funded. There will be no new Federally funded routes or frequencies - a doctrine that has stood since the Bush administration. So far as State funding goes, need we address at this topic how train friendly Tallahassee has been of late? So far as adopting a model of County level funding as exists for Tri-Rail (and planned for SunRail), good luck getting the nine on-line counties (did I count 'em right?) to impose the required "ear marked" tax (a "Sales Tax" in the case of Tri-Rail) in order to obtain matching State level funds.

Well, the state of Florida has put up a considerable amount of funding for SunRail. $461 million to buy the tracks from CSX for example. Checking the SunRail website, the state of Florida will be providing the operating subsidy and maintenance costs for SunRail for the first 7 years of operations, then the local governments are supposed to take that part over.

When Gov. Scott canceled the Tampa to Orlando HSR project, he got a huge amount of backlash and an earful from state politicians from both parties. But, once he canceled it to satisfy his tea party backers, he could not back down, so the project was dead. With his approval rating among the lowest of any governor in the US. I suspect he learned his lesson from that mistake and decided not to get in the way of SunRail and the FEC project.

While there is a lot of speculation here on what the plans are for the FEC, the Florida 2010 HSIPR applications and documents for the FEC project can be found at http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/HSIPR-F ... ation.shtm. These documents lay out in detail what the plans and projected costs were in 2010 for restoring passenger service over the FEC. Not a lot of mystery here. That application was for $250 million of federal funding with a state contribution of $123 million for $373 million total. The project proposal had three phases:
Phase 1: $250 million for track work, crossover connection in West Palm Beach, 8 new stations with pullover sidings & 1000' plus long platforms where feasible, 29 miles of track & curve upgrades for 90 mph speeds, the Silver Star split at Jacksonville and a single Miami to Jacksonville corridor train. Amtrak supplies the equipment.
Phase 2: $115 million for rolling stock acquisition for 3 additional daily corridor trains between Cocoa and Miami.
Phase 3: $25 million for rolling stock acquisition for one additional corridor train between Jacksonville and Cocoa (which is a rather odd approach).

The question is how much Florida can accomplish with $118 million plus whatever the local governments are willing to provide to build the stations, platforms, and pullover tracks. If someone wants to dive into the cost numbers to figure our what could be done with $118M, they are welcome to do so. My guess is that some or much of the track, signal, and curve work to achieve 90 mph speeds over much of the route gets postponed for future funding. If Amtrak provides the equipment for the corridor service, this will be Horizon cars available in 3+ years.

As for the corridor service, that will have to be funded by the state. The Silver Star will provide a corridor type service, but Amtrak expects improved cost recovery, so it is a plus for the federal subsidy. In the 2010 application: "FDOT has committed to fund up to $5.3 million a year of the projected operations and maintenance deficit for Phase 1 through
FDOT’s 5-year Work Program." of course, that was in 2010. However, there is no guarantee that Amtrak would run the corridor service. The state could decide to bid that. On the other hand, who else has intercity passenger cars available and a complete service facility near the future Miami intermodal station?

mtuandrew wrote:Instead of splitting a Silver train (probably the Star) at Jacksonville, how about the East Coast Champion* corridor train starts and ends at Savannah? If Georgia and CSX played along, it would make operations a lot easier.

The Champion can start southward at Savannah each morning at 7 am, giving connecting Palmetto passengers a decent night's sleep in a hotel. The train would be right on the markers of the Silver Star, and in fact Savannah, Jesup and Jacksonville would be transfer points from the Star to the Champion. At Jacksonville, the Star would hold for the Champion to catch up, just in case any passengers wanted to transfer the other way. Then, the trains would go their separate ways - the Star for Orlando, Tampa and Miami, and the Champion direct to Miami. The Champion would arrive at 4 or 4:30 pm, assuming a 6 hour ride along the FEC and CSX.

On the way north, assuming that same 6ish hour schedule (is this correct, Mr. Weaver?), the Champion could start from Miami at 3 pm, arrive at JAX at 9:30 pm, and beat the Meteor to Savannah by an hour and a half - about 12 midnight. Again, enough time for the intrepid traveler to sleep overnight and catch the Piedmont at 8 am the next day if they choose not to connect to the Silver Star.


* Of the original train names, this one sounds the best to my ears!

Curious about this; is there currently a crew base and servicing facility in Jax? And would FL state officials want a train with an additional 120 or so miles (I ride this stretch of 95 a LOT) from Jax to Georgia? I doubt Georgia would kick in for the cost. I like the idea of a daylight train from Sav. to Miami but not sure if the extra couple of hours and the use of CSX juice train tracks would accomodate it. Now, if the GA HSR corridor ATL-Macon-SAV (or SE Georgia) ever came to pass, you'd have a possibility there. But we're getting off topic from the proposal on the table (although it's a fun "what-if").

Noel Weaver wrote:I don't think there is any way that Amtrak is going to turn their back on either Orlando nor Tampa, they recognize the good market in both cities for their service. I think they want to expand their market in Florida and better serve South Florida which a routing on the Florida East Coast will accomplish.
Noel Weaver

I agree. This market was considered for HSR after all, and is one of the cross-peninsular routes that is, for the most part, fully developed with anchor cities. Even the I-10 corridor, which I drove once, does not have a lot going for it. And, if I understand FL demographics at all, most of the population centers are along the coasts.

And it really is just a what-if, as much as I think it would make sense to decouple the Silver Service from east coast service. The time benefits to Miami-bound travelers in regards to getting off the Silver Service in JAX and connecting to the Champion are pretty clear, and I think traffic would be very healthy even without through cars.

I do have another what-if, if you'll indulge me: service to Tallahassee. According to Amtrak's April 2003 timetable, the Sunset Limited took 4 hours from Tallahassee to Jacksonville. If Amtrak plays with the Silver Meteor's schedule a bit and schedules the new corridor train to depart Tallahassee at 6 am, it can meet the Meteor at Jacksonville at 10 am to exchange and pick up passengers. That puts the corridor train in Miami between 4 and 5 pm, and the Meteor at 7:30 or so. On the way northwest from Miami, the corridor train can leave at 11 or noon, arrive in JAX at 6 pm to drop passengers for the Star (and pick up Tallahassee-bound passengers from the Meteor), and arrive in Tallahassee at 10 pm. It's a long wait for passengers connecting from the north to Tallahassee, but would be fine for in-state travel. Thoughts?

In regards to your question, Amtrak's Florida state summary says that Jacksonville has a train and engine crew base. Whether it's up to the same level as Savannah, I couldn't say.