Amtrak on the Florida East Coast FEC Jacksonville - Miami

"Amtrak official: Jacksonville-to-Miami rail 'going to happen'"

Moving along.....I hope this happens soon. Not sure whether Daytona or Titusville is closer to New Smyrna.

Brief, fair-use quote:

There are no concrete plans in place yet for when passenger rail service could begin along Florida’s East Coast. But Florida Department of Transportation state rail
manager Fred Wise said $118 million is committed in DOT’s work program for the budget year that begins July 1, 2013, for the development of the proposed rail line along Florida’s East Coast tracks linking Jacksonville to Miami.

...

They came up to the lectern like a train on a schedule, proceeding north to south along the route — St. Augustine, Daytona Beach, Titusville, Cocoa/Rockledge, Melbourne, Vero Beach, Fort Pierce, Stuart.

...

Before Amtrak Flagler Line service can begin, there are some hurdles, including the Florida Legislature working out a plan with Amtrak, the DOT and the Florida East Coast Railway related to liability issues.

...

Latiff and Wise say it’s a little to soon to finalize either the required budget or when the first Amtrak train would run on the Flagler Line.

Plans call for one or two trains a day in each direction.

I went to college in Daytona. New Smyrna is definitely much closer to Daytona.

New Symrna Beach and also Bunnell have been trying to secure a station stop but Amtrak feels that these long distance trains will serve the east coast well with no additional stops. I think if Florida were to step up to the plate and support a corridor type service over this line that probably both would be added as well as a couple more points too. There are hurdles to overcome but the feeling here in Florida is not a question now of "if" but rather "when" this will happen. I think there is an excellent chance of this happening but who know just when????? Incidentally the mileage between Daytona Beach and New Symrna Beach is 15.24 miles and the distance between New Symrna Beach and Titusville is 28.96 miles.
Noel Weaver

I believe in the draft plan, there are corridor trains listed for the FEC, but probably not when the service starts.

I agree with Noel; too many stops, and all you do is increase trip time. For it to be effective Jax to Miami there needs to be limited stops.

Eventually, more local service can be added if it doesn't gum up FEC traffic.

And thanks for those distances. I figured DB would be a lot closer.

Backing up Mr. Weaver, one thing I've noticed in my time traveling on long distance trains, and this is purely a personal perception, the scheduling of stops seems to concentrate on one stop every 45 to 60 minutes. I think it gives the conductors and service staff enough time to process passengers on and off, do the paperwork and take a ten minute break before they have to get up and do it all over again. Besides, driving up to an hour doesn't seem to bother too many people to reach an airport, I suppose it wouldn't be too much different to access an Amtrak station. I would hazard a guess that the people at Amtrak are abundantly aware of all these factors.

Let me inject another personal observation here: It would seem that, given the desired station spacing, Amtrak's patronage base would generally be anyone living up to 60 miles either side of any Amtrak route. I'll even go out on a limb and say that, for the Flagler Route, seeing as the tracks are on the coast and no one lives in the ocean, one could easily extend that base out up to double (120) the miles. The exception, of course, would be where those bases intersect/overlap those of other routes.

Champlain Division wrote:Let me inject another personal observation here: It would seem that, given the desired station spacing, Amtrak's patronage base would generally be anyone living up to 60 miles either side of any Amtrak route. I'll even go out on a limb and say that, for the Flagler Route, seeing as the tracks are on the coast and no one lives in the ocean, one could easily extend that base out up to double (120) the miles. The exception, of course, would be where those bases intersect/overlap those of other routes.

Mr. Shivik, this is one of the reasons I have been opposed to service over the FEC - a position I have consistently held since since the route was proposed.

I'm not certain why your reasonable "60 mile limit" suddenly becomes 120 miles for an FEC routing. Maybe those critters with dorsal fins, sharp teeth, and about which horror movies are produced just might want to ride!! Failing that, there is no passenger base to the East of the FEC, while there is over the existing SAL.

Other reasons I have put forth include likely switching at JAX, additionally Federally funded train miles or a reduction in service at Orlando, and, should Amtrak be confronted with a "whack one today or you lose your funding tomorrow" ultimatum, the Meteor, which I contend could be whacked without 180 Day Notice under ARAA '97, would now require such be given along with of course the attending charades of public hearings.

Mr. Norman,

I'm not sure how "seeing as the tracks are on the coast and no one lives in the ocean, one could easily extend that base out up to double (120) the miles" was misunderstood. Perhaps I should have added "to the west" or "inland". This would apply to any Amtrak route on a coastline. Yes, I understand that, in Florida, there are other routes to the west inside of 120 miles, or even 60 miles probably for most of the Flagler Route's length.

In Florida, Amtrak routes parallel, and compete with, I-95 running from JAX to Daytona, I-4 from Daytona through Orlando to Tampa and the Florida's Turnpike and I-95 from Orlando through Fort Pierce to Miami. Really, the only portion of interstates in Florida Amtrak is not directly competing with is I-95 from Daytona to Fort Pierce (125 miles), all of I-75 and all of I-10. However, the dominate traffic artery is I-95 from Jacksonville to Miami followed closely by I-75 and the Florida's Turnpike from the Georgia border to Orlando. Based on that, one could easily challenge the need for a direct JAX - MIA route just to cover all of I-95 and/or to fill a 125 mile gap that is only 35 miles wide from Titusville to Orlando.

In all honesty, I believe Amtrak fully intends to reduce service to Orlando by re-routing one of the Silver Service trains, at least in the beginning. I also see the possibility of radically altering that train's schedule between NYP and MIA to make it a daylight train in Florida (morning departures from JAX and MIA) to be extremely likely. Extending the Palmetto as I've outlined here before is very much preferable, IMHO, but I don't think it's likely to ever happen. I also predict that DeLand being only 21 miles from Daytona and now effectively serving as Daytona's station will be closed shortly after the Flagler opens for business. Palatka may survive because it is closer to the Gainesville/Ocala area than St. Augustine is. Anything relatively close to I-95 on the Silver Service line is probably also in danger of being closed. Sebring and Okeechobee come to mind.

We shall see shan't we?

Champlain Division wrote:Mr. Norman,
I'm not sure how "seeing as the tracks are on the coast and no one lives in the ocean, one could easily extend that base out up to double (120) the miles" was arrived at.

Using that logic, with the State of Florida being less than 120 miles wide south of the panhandle, the Silver trains already running the entire length should draw passengers from either coast, making FEC line redundant.

by electricron » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:13 am

Champlain Division wrote:Mr. Norman,
I'm not sure how "seeing as the tracks are on the coast and no one lives in the ocean, one could easily extend that base out up to double (120) the miles" was arrived at.



Using that logic, with the State of Florida being less than 120 miles wide south of the panhandle, the Silver trains already running the entire length should draw passengers from either coast, making FEC line redundant.

I really wish people would read the details of my posts before they reply, but human nature being what it is................ What part of "This would apply to any Amtrak route on a coastline" did you not understand?

Amtrak obviously sees, Florida being the unique market that it is, that there is an ample passenger base within a ten mile wide strip along the coast, that it hasn't been able to tap, that just will not drive inland to Palatka, DeLand, Orlando, Sebring or Okeechobee to ride a train. And I can attest to this. I lived in Daytona while attending college. Folks there would invariably ask "Why should I drive way over to _________? Why can't Amtrak run a train down the Florida East Coast?" "Coasties" figure that they already have all of the modern conveniences right there and they would rather not have to drive out into "the boonies" to catch a modern train. Therefore, Messrs. Norman and electricon, such a route would not be redundant, imho. Rather, it would be a significant addition to Amtrak's fortunes in Florida. Diverting one Silver Service train down the FEC is obviously seen by the State of Florida and Amtrak as a major revenue enhancement for it's overall business in that region. If I am proven ultimately wrong, I'll eat crow. Right now, though, I don't think that will happen.

Oh, BTW, Mr. electricon, you misquoted me. What I wrote was "I'm not sure how "seeing as the tracks are on the coast and no one lives in the ocean, one could easily extend that base out up to double (120) the miles" was misunderstood." If you're going to quote me, please do it accurately and don't put in words I never wrote.

Yes a train on a coast only have a passenger base on one side - but on the other hand population density tends to be higher on the coast, so if you have a high density on the land side, the populationless ocean doesn't really matter. My impression is that there's a string of mainly retirement communities along the FEC and that they have been growing quite a lot, but I'm not familiar with Florida, so it is more of a general observation, that might or might not apply to local conditions.

Same thing with station spacing. If population density is high a closer spacing might be a good idea, especially if it corresponds to local town centers or other traffic generating destinations (colleges, tourist spots). Additionally a shorter spacing might make more sense near the end of a long distance route than on the middle of it. More local/regional traffic is desireable as it fills up seats that can't all be filled with long distance passengers from the point of origin (much like what happens on the Miami-Tampa run on the Palm).

Shorter distance passengers are probably more sensitive to travel distance to the station too, and again that is an argument for a closer station spacing than "normal" if you want to attract that group. For people travelling LD/overnight, a longer drive to the station will not matter that much. They have already chosen the slower mode over the plane, clearly for other reasons than speed. For people travelling regionally the equation might look differently. If you have to drive more than an hour to either the station or the airport the plane might win. But if the station is much closer to origin as well as destination, the time advantage for the plane starts getting eaten up by driving, airport hassle, renting cars etc.

On a side note I don't get the doubling of the distance people are willing to drive either. What factor is it that will make people drive 120 miles to catch a train that runs on the coast, but only 60 if they are driving to a station far from water?

The FEC has another problem though as running at water level on a hurrican prone coast is a bit of a time bomb. With water levels projected to rise further and hurricanes to become more frequent it would not be the line I would invest a lot of money in, if I was a Florida politician without some serious risk calculations.

trainviews wrote:

On a side note I don't get the doubling of the distance people are willing to drive either. What factor is it that will make people drive 120 miles to catch a train that runs on the coast, but only 60 if they are driving to a station far from water?

It may not, in all actuality, go that far out from a coastal route like the Coast Starlight. Maybe more like 90 miles. With an inland route far from water one can safely say its passenger base would come from 60 miles either side of the tracks. Effectively, a 120 mile wide traffic base. I'm just saying that people may be more likely to travel two hours to a route in a populated coastal area than one far inland. An educated guess that may not be accurate.

If passengers aren't willing to drive 60 miles from Port Canaveral to Orlando to catch a train mid state, they certainly will not be willing to drive 120 miles entirely from coast to coast from St. Petersburg to Port Canaveral either.

I see a bunch of folks here "racing their motors" NOBODY knows just what will happen or even at this point if anything will happen at all. Maybe it will and maybe it won't. I have said this before but I guess it bears repeating, Amtrak manaement themselves at this point do not know what is going to happen here and if it happens (I hope it does) what happens???? Most of what I am reading here is simply second guessing and most of it is simply a bunch of "BS".
This topic would be much more useful to all if we simply posted what comes out in the press or in announcements and forget an opinion which I for one is not worth anything.
Sorry if I have stepped on some toes here but these are my thoughts and I am in Florida.
Noel Weaver

News, thoughts and opinions are what this and all other forums are all about, in my humble "opinion." These forums are here so people of like mind and interest can, like they would trackside or around someone's kitchen table, shoot the "BS" and state their opinions and observations. These are discussion forums. "Announcements" are not discussions and discussions are filled with opinions.

I've stayed on topic, so who wants to discuss Amtrak and the FEC, MIA to JAX?