Amtrak derailment in New Haven,CT - 10PM 10/28

Right now , I think the details are WAY too fuzzy to get a good story. All I've heard is an Acela derailed suth of New Haven, and it may/may not have been backing up at the time.

If it's crew error, it's disturbing because Amtrak's been having a lot of these "Oopsies" lately. As the one factory sign years ago pointed out - <b>Mistakes are warnings!</b>

Frankly, if it is crew error, <i>and I don't see enough here to say that with any certainty</i>, then it's yet another warning sign that there's a <b>big</b> problem with the safety culture at Amtrak, and frankly, a really big accident is going to happen sooner or later if nothing is done. Plenty of major industrial and transportation accidents in the past were preceeded by minor events that were ignored, and often there were problems from the bottom to the top w.r.t. safety.

There are conflicting reports out there. One AP report says the train was backing up due to catenary damage ahead when the derailment occured.

However, a reliable source has posted on the yahoo All_Aboard list a very detailed account of what appears to be a rule violation by the train's Engineer

Hopefully further details will be forthcoming

BTW, i was wrong, the ACSES only affects the train going in the foward direction, so if the train decided to back up, the ACSES would not show a speed limit, the Cab signal would show 15 or " - - " for no speed. I just asked an engineer about this a half hour ago

It was all due to a Freight Having Issues also Stunning that an Acela would Derail let's be thankful it was not Chase.

AmtrakFan

I guess one possibility could be that the train passed a red signal and ran over a switch that was aligned against them, then trying to cover their arse, they stopped and backed up, yet the train hadn't completely cleared the switch, so part of the train went one way, and part went the other way.

Just a random guess.

It was all due to a Freight Having Issues also Stunning that an Acela would Derail let's be thankful it was not Chase.

Yeah you're right. No one died, and nobody badly hurt either. I wonder, can the Acela Express trainset involved be saved or will it have to be down for long term (more than one calendar year)?

If the crew did run a Stop Indication, they should have fessed up to the appropriate dispatcher immediately, instead of trying to 'cover up their tracks', (no pun intended) as some reports are saying.

Had they done that, they might not have derailed, causing more delays, more damage. Yes if they admitted their rule violation in the first place, they would have been disciplined, but now they are probably going to be ina hell of a lot more hot water. (another rules violation was violated when they made the reverse move within the interlocking without he dispatcher's verbal permission)


All I want to know is, was that really #66 near Providence around 1115 this morning?!?!?

Saw another eastbound with a pair of Genesis engines few hours later, nic to see them pulling once and a while.

the first time this happened, the Acela had a failure in it's cab signal system. Instead of proceeding at a restricted speed, the engineer took the train far above the authorised speed for movements goverened by waysides on MN and consequently could not stop in time when a restrictive signal presented itself at the next CP.

That wasn't an Acela, it was a standard Regional train.

If one blows through a power switch set against you there is clear evidence of your infraction so there is no point backing up.

Why is everybody so hot to blame the crew anyhows?

Frankly, if it is crew error, and I don't see enough here to say that with any certainty, then it's yet another warning sign that there's a big problem with the safety culture at Amtrak, and frankly, a really big accident is going to happen sooner or later if nothing is done.

Recently I was on a train that was wrong railing it in 251 territory. We had a Form D and has to pass through two intermediate interlockings. The pots could only display a RESTRICTING for wrong rail traffic and even with a form D one needs to approach all interlockings prepared to stop. Well we blew through those two interlockings at speed. Saved us a might bit o time, but not the safest practice.

At the beginning of this, please let me make this very clear, I am NOT
placing any blame on this, everything will come out in due time at an
investigation.
Having said that, I will say that both Amtrak and all of the commuter
agencies who have their own operating personnel (engineers, conductors
and trainpeople) if these people first had to put in some time in road and
local freight service and really learn the job the right way.
I worked a lot of passenger jobs over the years and the best crews were
the ones where the individuals had some freight experience first.
What prevents that today, well in the early to mid 1980's, a separation
occurred. On January 1, 1983 all of Conrail engine and train service
employees in the northeast had to make a choice as to whether they
wanted to work for Amtrak, one of the various commuter agencies such as
Metro-North, New Jersey Transit, SEPTA, etc or stay and cover the
remaining freight work with Conrail. By the nature of the situation, the
vast majority of these employees ended up for the most part one
hundred per cent passenger service people.
"Boot Camp" meaning Oak Point Yard, Cedar Hill Yard, North Jersey Yards
etc, you get my point, are no longer places for relative new people to
really learn the job.
Years ago, most firemen worked switchers and local freights, through
freights and finally passenger jobs and often newly promoted engineers
had to go the same route too.
Today the new hire engineers go through a training program which while
extensive and expensive, still can't cover everything that one encounters
during their career. In addition, there is only so much a person can
absorb during a given period of time.
I would be willing to bet that if a background check were done on the
people in passenger service who have suffered discipline problems, that
the majority of them have had NO freight experience.
Generally, with the passenger railroads, the only possibility of any type of
freight work would be a work train and if it runs regular, chances are that
it would become a bid assignment and likely go to a high seniority crew.
I do not have a solution at present but this is one of the consequences of
the passenger railroads taking over their own operating people.
There is a limited free flow between Amtrak and CSX/NS in the corridor
but that is about it for the most part although other limited situations can
also occur. This flow situation only applies to the most senior people with
these railroads and not too much use is made of it anymore.
In the days of the Pennsylvania, New York Central and New Haven among
other railroads, an engineer or fireman could generally bid in any job that
they were qualified for whether it be a local freight, through freight,
commuter passenger or long distance passenger job or if they prefer they
could also bid in a yard job. The trainmen had it too but to a much more
limited scale at least on the New Haven and maybe the others too.
I can remember in my extra list days, I could be called for any of the
various types of work that I mentioned above. After I acquired enough
seniority for a choice of better jobs, I still had the opportunity every week
to bid in again, any of the above types of work.
Noel Weaver

Let me first state that I am not hot to blame anyone, least of all the crew. Just trying to share information.

Now, reports have emerged that the preceeding freight had dragging equipment which took out a home signal at the interlocking in question. This makes it more understandable how the acela ran the restricting signal, the engineer would have been looking for the home signal but it was not there. Cab signals presumably gave some indication, but perhaps it was too late to stop before entering the interlocking at that point.

anyhow, then there is a dispute between the DS and Engineer. ENgineer says given permission to reverse, DS claims not. Radio tapes are being reviewed.

Mr. Weaver--Your post about modern engineers lacking freight experience got me thinking.
"Back in the day" engineers spent a long apprenticeship as firemen, where their engineers could spend years conveying their knowledge and experience. Now, engineers get some months of training, including with sophisticated simulators, but then, in passenger service, they are usually alone in the cab. In freight service, with 2 man crews, they have a conductor with them, but the conductor now often has less experience than the engineer. (Freight railroads now seem to have a career path where conductors can train as engineers. This might make the conductor's job similar to the old fireman's job as an apprenticeship opportunity, except that now it is against the rules for the conductor to do any running, while firemen did running as part of their apprenticeship.)

I honestly don't know if this incident meets the threshold for an NTSB investigation. Lest we forget, all reports as of today note there were no injuries. If that agency investigates, the record is public, and one of these days "we'll know'.

However hearings and investigations on the properties of Amtrak and MNR, as well as any discipline assessed to employees, is private. Such is not automatically admissible (unless things have greatly changed in the 25 years since I left the railroad industry) in civil litigation. Criminal, of course, a different story, but I doubt if that is any issue here.

Nasadowsk wrote:Right now , I think the details are WAY too fuzzy to get a good story. All I've heard is an Acela derailed suth of New Haven, and it may/may not have been backing up at the time.

If it's crew error, it's disturbing because Amtrak's been having a lot of these "Oopsies" lately. As the one factory sign years ago pointed out - <b>Mistakes are warnings!</b>

Frankly, if it is crew error, <i>and I don't see enough here to say that with any certainty</i>, then it's yet another warning sign that there's a <b>big</b> problem with the safety culture at Amtrak, and frankly, a really big accident is going to happen sooner or later if nothing is done. Plenty of major industrial and transportation accidents in the past were preceeded by minor events that were ignored, and often there were problems from the bottom to the top w.r.t. safety.

How many Oppsies has Amtrak had lately expect this one? Also their going to have to pay for this them seves because My Dad told me they are self-Insured. Is that true?

AmtrakFan

I would be willing to bet that if a background check were done on the people in passenger service who have suffered discipline problems, that the majority of them have had NO freight experience.

What's your point? Freight trains require FAR more skill and training than passenger trains. If you aren't skilled and you're in charge of a mainline freight on even slightly non-trivial terrian you're probably going to end up puttin cars on the ground and maybe unleash a cloud of toxic death upon some unsuspecting community.

Commuter systems like the LIRR, MNRR and SEPTA run trains that are little more than glorified subways. Compared to freight they can stop on a dime and there is none of that pesky slack action. I was once on MNRR at 80 mph in an M-1 and there was some track worker sitting on our rail ahead. The engineer brought the train to a stop from 80 in under 2000 feet and proceeded to yell at the guy for his safety violation.

I think that in today's rail environment one should graduate from passenger to freight and not the other way round.

My point is that there is NO substitute for experience and the best
experience on the railroad is freight and yard service followed by
passenger service.
There are many differences in running passenger trains and freight trains
and even between MU passenger trains and a long locomotive hauled
passenger train.
On a passenger train, an engineer has to make a quick decision and act
accordingly while on a freight train, an engineer often has time to think
and plan ahead just how he/she will handle a slow down or stop. On the
other hand, on a freight train if one makes the wrong decision you might
be quite sorry afterward. Freight trains are not as forgiving of a bad move.
Noel Weaver