Why Doesn't....

I'll call this the why doesn't SEPTA thread just for fun, because i know that it's not going to happen... :D


Why doesn't SEPTA run straight thru service from Wilmington Deleware to Trenton New Jersey... This is a service that could be ran during peak hours during rush hour Mon-Friday, if the service happened to be a success then add weekend service as well. It would not have to be a whole fleet either. They could use three of the Bombairder train sets to operate this train which would operate underground @ 30th Street Station with Amtrak & New Jersey Transit. They have the extra platforms to make this happen, so i say why not...

The R2 which runs from Warminster could just operate to the top of 30th Street & terminate there or the airport..

For some reason i get a good feeling in my pinky toe that this service would be a success & the Bombardier sets would not have to worry about running @ slower speeds & would be utilized for their full potential.


Next Up SEPTA spent money to make modifications to North Philadelphia to attract more riders, they need to make a pathway that would lead directly to Broad Street to reach there & the Broad Street Line..

Why doesn't SEPTA run straight thru service from Wilmington Deleware to Trenton New Jersey

Amtrak already does this. You wish SEPTA to compete with Amtrak directly? If there were demand, people would ask for it. There does not seem to be. Nor does Amtrak, I suspect, want SEPTA to suddenly start using the lower level of 30th Street after all this time of separate operation.

For some reason i get a good feeling in my pinky toe

Whenever I got feelings in my toes, that meant rain.

The real "why doesn't" that needs to be asked is, why doesn't Harrisburg and Washington DC behave more generously towards SEPTA.

I think that the original route designations that were made after the tunnel was completed were based on ridership levels, and most likely explains where there is no through service from Trenton to Wilmington. Also, this route would most likely skip Suburban Station and Market East which could be good or bad.
On the other hand, a train could come in from Trenton on the upper level of 30th Street, test their brakes, and then use the other cab of the train for the rest of the trip. Maybe they need to bring back the flipping seats though, because the direction of your seat would be reversed for half of the trip.
At least the idea is geographically correct.

Septa lease a handful of F-40's and and some Horizon coaches and run the SVM on a 'trial' basis?
4 trains a day - Reading to lower-level 30th St.
Seems like a more realistic predicator of ridership projections than jackin' their chains at 1234 Market...
Oh well...

greg19051 wrote:I think that the original route designations that were made after the tunnel was completed were based on ridership levels,

Correct. But that doesn't really affect the question of why there isn't through running from Trenton to Wilmington.

and most likely explains where there is no through service from Trenton to Wilmington. Also, this route would most likely skip Suburban Station and Market East which could be good or bad.

Very bad. Nearly 90% of your weekday ridership is headed to those two stations. The market for through-city travel is small (on the order of two or three percent total for all markets, and the market for Trenton-Wilmington smaller still. It's a [stinking] railfan's wish, no more.

Very bad. Nearly 90% of your weekday ridership is headed to those two stations. The market for through-city travel is small (on the order of two or three percent total for all markets, and the market for Trenton-Wilmington smaller still. It's a [stinking] railfan's wish, no more.

Exactly, that's why i didn't say a dedicated fleet, just 3 trains on a trial run basis. Someone may have said the same thing about NJT's Trenton to Penn Station & that is a very successful line. Think about some of the people who may ride from Wimington & then interchange @ 30th Street to continue to Trenton. This would mainly work for people who use zone transpasses as well. It offers a 1 seat ride with no interchange inbetween & correct disels could be used instead of electric trains. Besides i like the way the system is set up now, i would just like to see more options excercised used that's all.

I meant to put this thread more of a what if scenario, sorry i phrased it wrong because we know this would never happen in the real world since we can barely retain the current service now with Septa.. But one can dream....

Nobody's commuting from Wilmington to NYP on Septa and NJT... it would be way too slow... the ride from Philly-NYP as it is now using Septa and NJT is slow enough (~2 hrs., 20-30 min.). For the 20 or 30 people commuting from Wilmington to NYP a day, they can use Amtrak.

Here's a simple one...

Why doesn't SEPTA make regional rail free of charge between University City and Temple? It's not like they really check tickets in that area, and the crews change at Suburban, so the boarding crew has no idea if you got on at Media and had you ticket taken, or if you got on at 30th sans ticket and are just riding to Market East. I realize they do sometimes check tickets outbound before Temple or University, so perhaps they'd only be free inbound or something. Really I'm just looking to end the moronic charade where the C/R can bust you if he or she is having a bad day. SEPTA needs to figure out what exactly they're doing, and stop it with this 'operator's perogative' BS

As an addendum, they should also figure out if a trolley going off duty on the diversion route can pick up passengers or not. I thought the official policy was that all trolleys were in service so long as they did not read 'Chartered' or 'Not In Service'. But operators on the diversion route during the day will not pick up passengers, even though their signs may say '11-Island and Woodland' or something.

why doesn't SEPTA run two or three round trip diesels daily to Tunkhannock via Allentown, Bethlehem, and Scranton? The ROW is almost in place, it just needs a little track work. In the heyday of the LVRR, Tunkhannock was quite the railroad town.

Myke Romeo Angel wrote: Why doesn't SEPTA run straight thru service from Wilmington Deleware to Trenton New Jersey...

because R2 Wilmington and R7 Trenton are on the same "south west" side of 30th Street station. To create a through-line such as R5 Paoli to Doylestown you need to have the track actually go through 30th street, not have both lines come out the same end! This is in the interest of efficient use of the cars as it is convenience in schedule for the passengers, as it is for making sure a train stops at as many C.City stops (four or five including Temple and UCity) as poss. once without having to go over the same track twice in one "trip."

Furthermore, R2 Warminster to Wilmington is not such a "through-line" as you have indicated. Only two or three trains a day running between those towns. Most Wilmington trains in fact go to Norristown, and most Warminster trains serve the R1 airport.

This is proof that they'd rather serve customers better by running trains that people actually need, and by running all sorts of hourly trains with efficient routes in terms of length and duration. This is their priority rather than making sure the secondary condition of R5N => R5S and vice versa works for all the other lines as well. Ridership changes constantly and SEPTA doesn't want to be locked in to saying that "all R3s must originate in West Trenton and terminate in Elwyn." I understand and appreciate that insight, even though it leads to some inconsistencies, such as an R2 train going south through the suburbs along the Warminster line with an R1 sign on the front. That probably confuses the heck out of people. So some of the more observant engineers put a "Center City Philadelphia" sign up along with the Airport sign. good thinking on their part. A from/to convention would also do the trick. Go digital like NJT, and have the station boards show what trains stop where. More thoroughly than on the "Smart stations" we have now, where the digital board shows the next four trains coming, toggling back and forth between track numbers. I don't think it should toggle. Just show the next train on each side, and be done with it. Don't need to show the next train on BOTH sides on BOTH sides.

But then it gets complicated on some lines. SEPTA has some making schedules wanting you to believe that an R1 is an "R2 Glenside", but if you look at the R2 schedule, there is no such animal. To fix this problem SEPTA either needs to change the platform announcements to "R1 Glenside" or change the R2 schedule to include those couple of deadheading "R1" northbound trains (used to be once an hour, but now only a few per day but the issue is still confusing). Consistency is still important! You can't have a station sign on the market East platform change from R1 Jenkintown/West Trenton to R2 Glenside/Warminster and then simply neglect to put in the R2 schedules that those R1 trains are really R2s that stop early (see both R5s for a potentially-confusing schedule done the right way).

I once got into a disagreement with an R5 conductor at Jenkintown (he started it) when I asked when the R1 was coming and he said "there are no more R1s tonight today boy. Look at the schedule. That last train's an R2!"

He was wrong but the confusion makes an excellent point. The combined timetable schedule calling it an R2G and my R1 schedule calling it an R1 are inconsistent and only confuse people the more they become familiar with the system. There is no right or wrong way to number the trains and the conductor shouldn't act like his convention is more modern than mine. Just keep a standard convention and stick to it! and if they find a need to phase in the new R2 convention, then they should phase it in completely instead of changing the number on only half of the schedules. Whoever has that half will think the other half are wrong and that conductor is arrogant for assuming that his schedule is the only schedule. They might as well call it the R-Twelve Glenside and appease both schedules. At least they'd be consistent then. That's all I want. I don't want to call it an R2 for the sake of "my line" being one step cooler than the R1 or whatever. enough. geez.

I guess when they cancel both the R1 and the R2, this will all be just a moot point and they don't want to spend $250,000 to do a schedule compatibility study that I just did in 20 minutes.

Wdobner wrote:Why doesn't SEPTA make regional rail free of charge between University City and Temple?

Well for one thing, it opens up an element of abuse, such as vagrants riding back and forth between the two stations. There's also the issue, albeit small, of revenue.

LAUNCHman wrote:why doesn't SEPTA run two or three round trip diesels daily to Tunkhannock via Allentown, Bethlehem, and Scranton? The ROW is almost in place, it just needs a little track work. In the heyday of the LVRR, Tunkhannock was quite the railroad town.

What ROW do you speak of? The former Reading line north of Lansdale is only in one piece up as far north as Quakertown; in Coopersburg and Hellertown, it's severed at grade crossings and the tracks are getting overgrown. (Hard to think that this was the major Boston-Washington route at one time, eh?)

Nope, far more than "a little track work".

...SETPA restore service from Philadephia and Bethlehem/Allentown????