What Would Have Happened if NYC Had Stayed out of PC

A great read, which has been mentioned often is Rush Loving's The Men Who Loved Trains

I learned a great deal from that book!

Also of great interest on this is The Wreck of the Penn Central by Joseph Daughen and Peter Binzen

Excellent reads!

Charlie

Those are both good books. The Wreck of the Penn Central was a quickie put out by two Philadelphia newmen, but they had closely followed the story as it unfolded. It has held up well too.

Rush Loving Jr.'s The Men Who Loved Trains is a wonderful book, written by a business news reporter who also happens to be a railfan. Loving knew (and knew well) many of the main players in the Northeastern rail saga and his story is very well-researched. His story is very authoritative.

I would also add, The Fallen Collossus by Robert Sobel, a history writer. This book is in a sense David Bevan's book (he was the chief financial officer of PRR and then PC). Bevan cooperated with Sobel and the book has a ton of insights. You get the story from Bevan's perspective and that really complements the other two books.

Although not directly related to the PC merger, I recently read Luecke's The Rock Island in Minnesota". The author talks about how the Rock Island, despite having the best mainline in southeastern Minnesota, ended up being forced into bankruptcy because it failed in trying to merge with another railroad (particularly with U.P., a struggle that dragged on for years before finally failing).

C&NW took over the M-St.L and CGW in the sixties, CB&Q/NP/GN merged into BN in 1970, and the last straw was the Soo Line / Milwaukee merger in the early eighties. Basically the Rock was surrounded by railroads that were better able to compete due to their recent mergers / acquisitions.

No doubt NYC would have been in the same boat, they would have had to merge with someone to stay solvent.

Tommy Meehan wrote:I would also add, The Fallen Collossus by Robert Sobel, a history writer. This book is in a sense David Bevan's book (he was the chief financial officer of PRR and then PC). Bevan cooperated with Sobel and the book has a ton of insights. You get the story from Bevan's perspective and that really complements the other two books.

Got the name of the book wrong. It's Stephen Salsbury’s No Way to Run a Railroad: The Untold Story of the Penn Central Crisis.

What's brilliant? It's just another bovine defecation excuse to paint modern equipment in the lightning stripe scheme.

A non merger Central would most certainly be in the cigar band scheme or a more modern version of it. Modern equipment in lightning stripe is the mark of a fuzzy thinking wanker.

The high mountain backdrop scenery on this layout is flat out ridiculous. What part of 'Water level Route' did he have trouble understanding?

scottychaos wrote:You have probably all seen this, but in case some haven't..this guys modeling is brilliant:

http://modelrailroading.wordpress.com/2 ... miniature/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYR-cYhp ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/user/NYCSystem

Scot

I think the Central would have done far better if it had looked for an end to end merger as opposed to the joining with the Pennsylvania, which basically went the same places it did.

I think a merger with the Santa Fe would have been great. They were also innovative as was the Central. A LA to NYC on one railroad would have been a great marketing point.

Another possible partner could have been Southern Pacific. Not as innovative though but went the same places.

Whatever it did, PRR probably would have done a deal with the other one. I see SP a better match with the PRR though.

A long shot in third choice, a multi road merger with the Burlington, Northern Pacific, Great Northern. The Burlington Northern constituents.

NewYorkcentralfan wrote:What's brilliant? It's just another bovine defecation excuse to paint modern equipment in the lightning stripe scheme.

Everyone is allowed their opinion. You don't have to like it--but it's his railroad, so..............

A non merger Central would most certainly be in the cigar band scheme or a more modern version of it.

Not completely sure how you rationalize this, as most companies evolve and change their looks over the years--including railroads.

Modern equipment in lightning stripe is the mark of a fuzzy thinking wanker.

Hmmm...........seems to me that the folks at the Finger Lakes Railway have done well with recreating the "Lightning Stripes." They are quite successful, so I don't think their thinking is that fuzzy. And since you have been here for just a couple of minutes--this is a big boy board. Wanker? Really??

The high mountain backdrop scenery on this layout is flat out ridiculous. What part of 'Water level Route' did he have trouble understanding?

Whoops! You must have missed this part of a paragraph (see below) from the website! So I will post another link for you so you can view for yourself.

Q: What clues of the past from the (actual) company exist on your layout
that hint or solidify the new alternate reality of this great company?

A: First, to clarify, there is no layout for the NYCS concept; it operates
on several club layouts in the Denver area.

Charlie

What part of 'Water level Route' did he have trouble understanding?

Probably most of the Pennsylvania Division of the NYC, the part which goers south from Lyons NY through Corning NY to the mines of Penn.

The division I currently model using HO scale models of NYC NE-1, NE-2 2-6-6-2's .... currently my favorite NYC steam.

Just one example of "non water level" NYC.

Even the Water Level wasn't all level.

Two grades that come to mind on the New York - Chicago mainline were 1) West Albany and 2) Batavia Hill.

In the steam era both had helpers assigned.

The New York Central was the "Water Level Route" BUT it was not all really level. South Byron Hill east of Batavia was the ruling grade between Syracuse and Buffalo westbound and more than one westbound train stalled on that grade in my days working that line. There was also a westbound climb out of Selkirk going to Syracuse. Grades galore on the Boston and Albany, grades on the River Line both in New Jersey and New York, the Catskill Mountain Branch and probably lots more that I missed. Back in the days South Byron Hill had a "G" signal, the River Line had a couple of them and I suspect the B & A had some although the B & A was not my territory.
Noel Weaver

Noel, that westbound signal at MP 400 is still a "G" signal today........even with today's power if there
is a heavy westbound with 12 or less axles pulling it's a slow go!

Charlie

charlie6017 wrote:Everyone is allowed their opinion. You don't have to like it--but it's his railroad, so..............

I reserve the right to point and laugh if it warrants it. Especially when someone sticks on the internet.

Not completely sure how you rationalize this, as most companies evolve and change their looks over the years--including railroads.

That would be finances, finances and finances. Could the Central have held on without the merger? Probably if it went to an extreme austerity footing. At the very least staying with the Cigar band.

Hmmm...........seems to me that the folks at the Finger Lakes Railway have done well with recreating the "Lightning Stripes." They are quite successful, so I don't think their thinking is that fuzzy. And since you have been here for just a couple of minutes--this is a big boy board. Wanker? Really??

I've been here since 2005. I hardly call that a few minutes.

The Finger Lakes' Railroad has all of fourteen locomotives. They can afford the man-hours to do a complicated scheme for the tourists.

The Central had hundreds. He's a wanker or a vestie if you'd prefer, because he thinks a class one would use a expensive to paint scheme on hundreds of locomotives. He has no concept of what an actual railroad of that size would do. There was a reason the Central went to the cigar band in the first place. Ignoring that makes you a wanker.

charlie6017 wrote:Whoops! You must have missed this part of a paragraph (see below) from the website! So I will post another link for you so you can view for yourself.

Q: What clues of the past from the (actual) company exist on your layout
that hint or solidify the new alternate reality of this great company?

A: First, to clarify, there is no layout for the NYCS concept; it operates
on several club layouts in the Denver area.

[/quote]

He could have at least had the decency to make sure that photos of NYC painted equipment didn't appear on the internet in mountainous scenery.

I am proud to be a rivet counter. If I don't like your work, I'm not afraid to say so. If I think your Vlasic Pickle car has no prototype, I'll say so. If you ask me what's the point, I'd just say I prefer not to have my time wasted by having nauseating models intrude upon my visual sphere and otherwise disrupt my enjoyment of a perfectly pleasant past time, which is the accurate and realistic depiction of the splendor of American railroads, as they truly were.

Which is not to say that I won't insult any modeler personally. Some of the nicest people I know are rotten modelers. On the other hand, I am not a nice person. Some lucky people are good modelers and nice, to boot. Nice people criticize me because I am nasty. I don't take this personally, any more than I expect the crummy modelers to take my criticism of their models personally. I accept the fact that I'm a rotten s.o.b. and I expect them to accept the fact that they'll never graduate from toy trains. That's just the way things are.

NewYorkcentralfan wrote:
He could have at least had the decency to make sure that photos of NYC painted equipment didn't appear on the internet in mountainous scenery.

I am proud to be a rivet counter. If I don't like your work, I'm not afraid to say so. If I think your Vlasic Pickle car has no prototype, I'll say so. If you ask me what's the point, I'd just say I prefer not to have my time wasted by having nauseating models intrude upon my visual sphere and otherwise disrupt my enjoyment of a perfectly pleasant past time, which is the accurate and realistic depiction of the splendor of American railroads, as they truly were.

Which is not to say that I won't insult any modeler personally. Some of the nicest people I know are rotten modelers. On the other hand, I am not a nice person. Some lucky people are good modelers and nice, to boot. Nice people criticize me because I am nasty. I don't take this personally, any more than I expect the crummy modelers to take my criticism of their models personally. I accept the fact that I'm a rotten s.o.b. and I expect them to accept the fact that they'll never graduate from toy trains. That's just the way things are.

Remember that this is a HOBBY. Hobbies are supposed to be FUN. You can be as prototypically accurate as you want but in the end you're still playing with trains.

What would've happened if this thread had stayed on topic?

I never did understand why the original poster of the model railroad photo links posted them in the middle of a conversation about the inevitability of Central's reasons for agreeing to the Penn Central merger.

.

Hmmmm, modern railroads with complex paint schemes? What about when the Santa Fe went back to the warbonnet scheme in the 90's? In fact, modern BNSF has some pretty complex paint schemes with stripes and hundreds of locomotives. As for mountains on the New York Central, the Boston and Albany east of Albany was all mountains, and then there was the Adirondack Branch. While the Water Level Route didn't run over the mountains, in a lot of places between Rome and Schenectady mountains are viewable from the mainline. Just my two cents.
C.J.V.