What causes derailments, why are they so common?

PC789 wrote:I think that safety should be a huge factor in a method of transportation like a train. But these days you always read about a train striking a car, god forbid a big truck and everyone dying. Why don't we put more money into making our railroads safe? If trains are so supposedly big and powerful why do objects that are 1-1000th of their mass cause them to derail? Why is our safety and engineering so poor?

What are your thoughts?

One of the main things that made locomotives derail and this is not a problum today but back in the 1800's locomotives were lighter and large animals such as Buffalo, cows, and maybe moose could derail a train this gave way to cow catchers. Locomotives might have had some mnor accdents or derailments as Automobiles came along but again this would have changed as safty improved with better warning devices and heavyer locmotives. There are how ever on occation althow rare a locomotive today might derail if they hit a semi truck just right.

"If we used locomotives like (this) more often for passenger trains....."

If you would do a little research, you'd find that that IS a fairly standard design for passenger locomotives. And what do you mean by "far fewer rail fatalities"? Do you even KNOW how many there are? And do you have an accurate idea of how many of those would have been prevented by a certain locomotive design, and how many occurred through factors totally unrelated to what type of locomotive was pulling the train?

It sounds like you have heard somewhere that sometimes people are getting killed on trains and have somehow arrived at the idea that the type of locomotive is the reason. Do some serious homework before making vague statements and general assumptions.

Another point: who says derailments are always a bad thing. Ever heard of a derail? Sometimes it better to put equipment on the ground than to have a engine roll away into a siding or protected shop track, or through an open movable bridge into a river.

PC789, I'm going to say this the only way I know how- are you like, fourteen or something? Because this entire course of conversation is flawed- from your hypothesis, to your argument, to your reasoning and campaign. If you're here to ask questions and learn what causes derailments and grade crossing accidents, we can teach you and help explain these concepts to you. Otherwise, you're just spittin' in the wind...

-otto-

I'm 15. Yes I get that if you where driving a car, for example and you hit a deer (a smaller mass) you would be injured because of the speed, that's not my point.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=ApXBXUpqYsE&feature=related\

I'm just saying that alot of train crashes could have been less catastrophic if there were better safety features in the US. Look at europe and how much safer (and lighter) their trains are. Look at the above video, why did the bourbanais accident happen if we could have had those crash zones? It would have kept the cars in line.

A car could not possibly derail a train if there were a guard on the locomotive or railcar, but some trains still drive without sufficient guards.

PC789 wrote:I'm 15. Yes I get that if you where driving a car, for example and you hit a deer (a smaller mass) you would be injured because of the speed, that's not my point.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=ApXBXUpqYsE&feature=related\

I'm just saying that alot of train crashes could have been less catastrophic if there were better safety features in the US. Look at europe and how much safer (and lighter) their trains are. Look at the above video, why did the bourbanais accident happen if we could have had those crash zones? It would have kept the cars in line.

A car could not possibly derail a train if there were a guard on the locomotive or railcar, but some trains still drive without sufficient guards.

Have you ever been to Europe? Problum is that even thow there trains are lighter and faster in Western Europe inspecters still can't catch everything that happens all over there system face it things happen just becouse a wheel looks good and was passed by someone who inspected it 24 hours ago dose not mean that it won't lock up or crack a few miles down the road causeing the train to derail or it was a hot day the rail kinked up later on in the afternoon do to the heat. In Eastern Europe it 's no better top speed in most parts don't run over 45 miles and hour becouse there is no money to put into the tracks or keep the rolling stock or cars runing. The Russian State Railroads has something like half a million railroad cars and only 20%-30% are useable becouse there is no money to rebuild or upgrade them.

The problum is not that there are not enough inspecters its just there so many miles they have to cover in a day. On top of his/her inspections there being called by road formen and outher work crews and so forth some times your called to work on a job site and are not able to get away. Or you may start at one work area and stop at 4 or more in a 10 mile strech.

Some of the defects that happen and can be vary unpredictable on and could cause a train to derail are:

Heat Kinks in the rail: The rail expands in the heat and gos out of alinment. You might notice that some railroads may stop running between a perticuler time in the morning and resume again later on near sun down.

Swelling of Ties: Railroad Ties can Swell up if it Rains enough to cause Spikes to loosen up.

Cold Weather: can cause the Rail to contract making them brittle and they pull apart.


Defects that are not commonley seen by the eye but are detectable with special equipment again they are not always caught the rail may look good today and month later a defect is detected.

Shelling: the rails rust from the inside out this happens when unseen Air bubbles in the steel rust out and exspand with the help of cold weather and rain.

Bolt Hole Cracks: these are most commonley found where bolts go in the rail these do happen in due time as the joint bars and bolts rock up and down causeing cracks to form in the bold holes. For this reason Ribbon Rail came into play to reduce the number of 39ft sections of rail needing replacement.

There are more defects to explane but I'll go into later.

PC789- Welcome aboard. We can explain to you some of the factors that contribute to derailments and grade crossing accidents, and we can explain the safety countermeasures if you have specific questions about those.

-otto-

scharnhorst wrote:Swelling of Ties: Railroad Ties can Swell up if it Rains enough to cause Spikes to loosen up.

Well, that's not the *full* story. What happens is that when the ties absorb water, each of the cells of the wood expands. Ordinarily, they simply expand, unless they're constrained by something, in this case, a spike. The cells don't stop expanding .... instead they explode under the pressure, and get crushed. When the tie shrinks later as it dries out, the spike is then loose in a larger hole.

If this subject is interesting to you, you'll find this book fascinating: Understanding Wood

RussNelson wrote:

scharnhorst wrote:Swelling of Ties: Railroad Ties can Swell up if it Rains enough to cause Spikes to loosen up.

Well, that's not the *full* story. What happens is that when the ties absorb water, each of the cells of the wood expands. Ordinarily, they simply expand, unless they're constrained by something, in this case, a spike. The cells don't stop expanding .... instead they explode under the pressure, and get crushed. When the tie shrinks later as it dries out, the spike is then loose in a larger hole.

If this subject is interesting to you, you'll find this book fascinating: Understanding Wood

humm looks like an intresting book I've always had an intrest in logging as well as nature and things of that sort.

Mr PC789, regarding the Bourbonnais "wreck", I've reviewed both the viideo and a portion of the accident report, and I think I can come up with an explanation for why the death toll was so high.

Note that in the video, the truck was hauling I-beams, placed lengthwise; a load such as this is going to offer much greater resistance to an impact than something dispersed throughout the trailer body. futhermore, two or three such beams are going to rpovide an even greater higher resistance, in proportional terms. Ask someone who teaches physics, if you want to dig a little deeper.

Had that truck been hauling, say, groceries on pallets, the train would likely have gone through it like a hot knife through butter. But it's possible driver Stokes didn't even recogniize the implications at the time. That puts him right up there in the Hall of Stupidity with Ricky Gates, the former Amtrak engineer whose fondness for marijuana and desire to watch a football game while on duty killed 14 people at Chase, Md, back in 1987.

There are various ways to measure railorad-accident fatalities, and one segment of the legal profession tends to quote the highest figures possible for reasons of its own benefit.

If you can put your thoughts in writing this well at age 15, I think you have some fine prospects a few years down the road. If this inquiry is part of something for school, you've earned a high grade in my book. We'd be glad to hear from you again.

The thing about the bourbannais wreck was that the steel poles weighed 37,000 lbs. about 18 tons. A genesis locomotive weighs 135 tons, and it's hauling a 1000 ton train, I understand there's resistence but why didn't the train just drag it along or toss is out of the way?

BR&P wrote: This is starting to get silly. Have you EVER seen a train you would consider less "tough" than a road vehicle?

I'm guessing the train that was hit by a truck in Australia. The truck driver was fine, and 11 people on the train where killed with a railcar ripped in half. Whenever a train hits a truck it's the same thing. Truck drivers are going to pull in front of trains, it shouldn't happen, but it does.

The last derailment I saw was somewhat unusual. one axle of a U Boat split the switch it was going over. Three axles made it, the last didn't and the wheels went on the ground. Since it was a switching operation, no speed was involved. Close inspection of the points of the switch ascertained that the points were worn out. The inspector sent out to pass judgement on the derailment promptly placed a red tag on the switch and condemned it. The points were replaced within 24 hours. At the time, the switch was Southern Pacific property.

there were reports last week of a nz train derailing after hitting a bull .

Surprised no one mentioned this, but in Europe many of the high speed lines have eliminated grade crossings which dramatically lowers the chance of collisions; fewer collisions, fewer derailments.