West Shore restoration (aka "real" River Line)

Don't forget commuter trains already run the line between Port Jervis and New Jersey.

Also, Suffern to Buffalo is owned by NS. The River Line is owned by CSX. Seriously doubt NS would agree to it in any way shape or form.

Keep commuters off the West Shore, the Northern is a good alternative.

Also, Suffern to Buffalo is owned by NS

Is not CP Sparrow eastwards coming under Metro-North ownership...?

Not really. PRR owns the line west of the division post at Hillburn. NS leases the line from PRR. NS and PRR argreed to a capitol lease of the line to MNRR. Eventually MNRR will own the line, but not yet.

(Copy of Lease)

The recent election was the first in many, many years where NONE of the candidates even mentioned restoration of train service on the CSX West Shore Line.

Usually somebody issues a statement, forms a panel, and gets their picture in the paper...

If NJT was to get passenger service onto the West Shore, would it be a joint NJT/MTA operation simliar to the Main Line if it goes into NY?

Butlershops wrote:PRR owns the line west of the division post at Hillburn

I was compelled to look that up. PRR = "Pennsylvania Lines LLC". They and "New York Central Lines LLC" comprise Conrail Shared Assets. The two great roads rise again as Conrail "subsidiaries" :-\ Too bad they can't rise again in earnest and kick CSX and NS south of the border again...

sullivan1985 wrote:If NJT was to get passenger service onto the West Shore, would it be a joint NJT/MTA operation simliar to the Main Line if it goes into NY?

I for one would imagine so. Service was, after all, projected to reach West Haverstraw. Unless the impossible occurs and that proposed Tappan Zee rail bridge gets constructed; then NJT would be connecting to Metro-North Shoreliner service in Rockland County...

I have to admit this project baffles me. First off which is the real Riverline, the line from upstate down to the Meadowlands? The Line from Trenton to Camden? Or the line from Zoo Interlocking's NEC feeds to 30th St Lower Level? See here: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/zoo.gif

Secondly, from NJT's map of the project on their site I see that the line basically parallels the PVL and future HBLRT to Tenafly up to near NYS. Given that an HBLRT line to Patterson comes across the Meadowlands and serves the same area of Ridgefield that the West Shore line would serve, while the Tenafly branch and PVL basically fufill the same role on either side of the West Shore Line. Why not increase the number of trains per day, as well as increase the size of the park-and-rides on the PVL and finish HBLRT rather than sinking 1.5 billion dollars into a line whose utility is debatable? Given that the NJT site is low on details, how many trains per day will use this line? The PVL only sees 10 trains inbound and 13 trains outbound in a given day, all traveling in the peak direction, then wouldn't some of the usage that might be gained with the West Shore Line also be gained simply by improving the PVL? You don't have to build stations, you don't have to boot freight trains out of anywhere, just add service to tracks, stations, and passengers that are likely already waiting for a train. What happens if you get the West Shore Line and it's just another peak hour commuter train running a dozen trains in the morning into the city between 6 and 9, and another dozen trains out of the city between 4 and 7? What is the point of duplicating the PVL operations a few miles to the east?

First off which is the real Riverline, the line from upstate down to the Meadowlands? The Line from Trenton to Camden? Or the line from Zoo Interlocking's NEC feeds to 30th St Lower Level?

I would have thought that the "West Shore" nomenclature on the title of the thread would have been self-explanatory—Conrail called the former New York Central's West Shore line by the name "River Line" for decades. The light rail line that NJT christened "River Line" (note that this is not the NJT Light Rail forum, hence evasion of discussion thereof on this forum) was known as the "Bordentown Secondary" to Conrail. As for the third, it is not in New Jersey and therefore has no bearing on "River Lines" within NJ.

Secondly, from NJT's map of the project on their site I see that the line basically parallels the PVL and future HBLRT to Tenafly up to near NYS. Given that an HBLRT line to Patterson comes across the Meadowlands and serves the same area of Ridgefield that the West Shore line would serve, while the Tenafly branch and PVL basically fufill the same role on either side of the West Shore Line. Why not increase the number of trains per day, as well as increase the size of the park-and-rides on the PVL and finish HBLRT rather than sinking 1.5 billion dollars into a line whose utility is debatable?

If you saw the traffic in northeastern Bergen County, you would not think it a matter of "debate" to reactivate both the West Shore Line and former Erie Northern Branch (where it is not set in stone for HBLRT to serve) as well as increasing service on the PVL.

I would use it. Bogota is a common destination for me and the PVL is "troublesome" for pleasure use.

I have to agree with Irish on this one. The traffic in Bergen County and surrounding areas is not in debate. The demand is there. Busses currently clog the Port Authority on a daily basis, and cars clog every street. While on the map these towns look close to one another, the simple task of driving between these towns and the PVL, or the West Shore or HBLRT (whichever gets built), is a chore.

I also personally fully support the cross county extension of the the HHLRT (excuse me, the HBLRT), since it would go right through my neck of the woods. Congested areas no matter which way you slice it.

Very true... there is no debate, and you can't simply just add more service. The roads are clogged heavier and heavier every day and soon it will be rediculously hard to drive in this county.

NJT should really start considering the northern soon, because the towns that the Northern goes through are notorious for bad traffic.

Bergen is in real need for more Rail, nimby's or not...

NJ's master plans for the Northern seem to be HBLRT rather than heavy rail service. That's prob another 5 years before they begin serious engineering, and then only if the towns are supportive.

Thats too bad, because for such a heavily populated region such as the Bergen/Passaic suburban area, light rail just doesn't seem to have the ability to handle all the people.

I really don't see any kind of express service on light rail...and whats the top speed a trolley can reach?

It just seems like it would make more sense to run light rail like a bus line with short branches into surrounding towns into a city like Paterson, but leavy it to heavy rail to spread across the county and into the major terminals...

sullivan1985 wrote: It just seems like it would make more sense to run light rail like a bus line with short branches into surrounding towns into a city like paterson, but leavy it to Heavy Rail to spread across the county and into the major terminals...

One problem is the dispersion of origin points (suburban and rural homes) and the dispersion of destinations, many of which are now in suburban and exurban office parks. Traditional rail theory assumes large flows to a single end point, such as NYC, Newark, Jersey City. As more businesses relocate the 78 corridor, the 287 corridor, the 80 west corridor, that's much less true now.

From last week's execs on the move column (office, home):

Parsippany, Bergenfield
Roseland, Cream Ridge
Morristown, Chester
Bedminster, Wayne
Newark, Skillman

That last one is the only example which is on a posssible rail corridor

Execs never use public transportation anyway, so they are not targeted passengers. Given the amount of bus service in eastern Bergen County, it is quite clear that the destination of many commuters remains Manhattan—otherwise the focus of NJ Transit Bus and Red & Tan would be on intrastate commuting.

Again, it's not set in stone for HBLRT to serve the Northern Branch. The "connecting DMU" idea is still being toyed with; this with an eye towards the ability to have all-day freight operations per the FRA.

NJ Transit's Kinki-Sharyo LRVs are rated for a top speed of 55 mph, but I believe that they can actually go faster. There is indeed express service on the HBLRT—note the rush-hour "Bayonne Flyer" service, which skips the Communipaw and Greenville areas after LSP. However, there are no bathrooms on board.