West Shore restoration (aka "real" River Line)

Check out the platforms at Short Hills, Summit, Chatham, Convent sometime around 7 -8 in the morning. Lots of Allan Edmonds shoes, nice suits, high end briefcases, and expensive looking haircuts. Plenty of Porsche, BMW 750, Land Rover iron in the parking lots. Not your typical entry level clerk vehicle

I'd suspect the demographics of train riders from towns where the average house sells in the $600,000 to a million range is pretty impressive. Here are some Bergen towns, compared to traditional M&E train riding towns. Source: Today's Star Ledger.

Bergen
Alpine $1.892mn
Creskill $682,000
Haworth $643,000
Norwood $616,000
Rockleigh $2.1mn

M&E Line
Millburn/Short Hills $930,000
Summit $840,000
Chatham (Avg) $568,000
Madison $581,000 (adj Harding is over a million)

I suspect the Raritan Valley line thru Westfield, Scotch Plains, and the Gladston Line would come up with similar findings.

don't forget Monmouth County either (Little Silver, Rumson, Fair Haven, Colt's Neck, Middletown, Marlboro, Monmouth Beach, Elberon, etc) and teh Coast Line. True, many exec types do take the ferries over the Raritan Bay from the various terminals, but there are many, many, many more who still ride the trains. I know of several execs and high-ups personally whom I have met from working the train, and there are a few others who I know personally aside from work.

Even though they might be well off, and could afford whichever way they want to get to work, they aren't stupid, and why spend the extra money if the train or bus or whatever will do just as well?

A very good friend of mine's father (WWWWWWAYYYYYYYYY up there in the Corporate food chain) lives right next to the former CNJ Seashore Branch ROW, and works in Jersey City, not far from the CNJ terminal....He would LOVE for that line to come back!!!! Door to door service!

I promised him when Im in charge of NJT - I will rebuild the Seashore branch!!! hahahahahhahha

I'd suspect the demographics of train riders from towns where the average house sells in the $600,000 to a million range is pretty impressive

If they're the high-level executive, then you have contradicted yourself. Manhattan is still the major destination. And I'm talking about this:

One problem is the dispersion of origin points (suburban and rural homes) and the dispersion of destinations, many of which are now in suburban and exurban office parks. Traditional rail theory assumes large flows to a single end point, such as NYC, Newark, Jersey City. As more businesses relocate the 78 corridor, the 287 corridor, the 80 west corridor, that's much less true now

So is "traditional rail theory" right or wrong?

Irish Chieftain wrote:If they're the high-level executive, then you have contradicted yourself. Manhattan is still the major destination. And I'm talking about this:

One problem is the dispersion of origin points (suburban and rural homes) and the dispersion of destinations, many of which are now in suburban and exurban office parks. Traditional rail theory assumes large flows to a single end point, such as NYC, Newark, Jersey City. As more businesses relocate the 78 corridor, the 287 corridor, the 80 west corridor, that's much less true now

So is "traditional rail theory" right or wrong?

No contradiction at all. Lots of senior execs still take the train, but many more drive (or are driven) to suburban locations. That wouldn't have been the case 20 years ago.

When I lived in Madison in the 1970s, NY and Newark were the only executive destinations. That's changed. HQs for Schering, Honeywell, Wyeth, MetLife Investments, Novartis USA, BASF are all within five miles of the Madison train station.

In the last six months alone, Morgan Stanley has moved several thousand people to Purchase NY, Merrill moved another several thousand to their already large facility in Plainsboro, near Dow Jones, another NY emigre. My suburban office complex has six hedge fund trading floors in our three buildings alone. Five years ago, these guys would have been in midtown, in the 40s, near GCT

Verizon is reported to be eying the old Pharmacia property in Bedminster, and both Barclays and NY Life are opening expansive campuses in Parsippany.

Cheap gasoline, even at $2, has fueled a market where people feel that living in Phillipsburg and working in Wayne is a lifestyle choice. Nobody's gonna build a railroad to connect those points anytime soon. Nor, any of the other exec moves I noted. Except maybe the Skillman guy...


NJT has some very serious challengs to anticipate how to efficiently move people as commuting patterns change, more people work sometimes from home, or work schedules based on the business day in Europe, China, LA, etc. I'm not a strong believer that heavy or light rail is the only answer for many of them.

(Edited for clarity)

I take the train daily from High Bridge to Newark; a coworker who also lives in Hunterdon drives on I-78 past Annandale station daily.

I work in a boutique brokerage firm in Rock Ctr. Its VERY high profile. ALL of our "top guys" train it in. None of them drive. Whether its LIRR, Metro North, NJT including Midtown Direct/NJCL/NEC - the vast majority train it. Many other bus in where trains are not convenient. This goes for many of my colleagues in the business at other firms. Manhattan is STILL the center of the universe for business, even though there are more corporate headquarters spread about the metro area and even though the SEC no longer requires brokerage firms to keep a presence within 100 yards of Wall St. Cater to the high-end corporate customer. Thats why people want club cars. If I had the option from central NJ, I'd use it. Also, don't fall for the cliche that a company director isn't a "regular guy". Yes, there might be a BMW in the driveway but he still wants to get to work easily and no, most of them don't have "drivers" to take them here and there.
BigDell

Re-routing freight off the West Shore is simply not an option CSX would likely even consider -- nor would the Port Authority, which is putting considerable investment into the region's freight rail network (the Marion Connection, which enabled CSX to move freight off the National Docks Branch, is a good example).

My understanding is that there is a study underway of extending the Hudson/Bergen Light Rail north from Tonnelle Ave. along the West Shore ROW, next to but not on the CSX tracks. This seems a more reasonable option than any others mentioned in this thread.

My understanding is that there is a study underway of extending the Hudson/Bergen Light Rail north from Tonnelle Ave. along the West Shore ROW, next to but not on the CSX tracks

Where did you hear this, exactly...? This is a first. Last I heard, it was still the Northern Branch that was to get HBLRT, not the West Shore. CSX, I suspect, would not be willing to give up any of that ROW for exclusive LRT operation.

This seems a more reasonable option than any others mentioned in this thread

How and why? Capital cost is greater; LRT cannot share tracks with freight; LRT will limit distance traveled (you sure are not going to travel to West Haverstraw on LRT—I would say that NY state would put the brakes on that); far less passenger capacity per trip; less comfort and facilities (e.g. bathrooms) than commuter rail; and no access to Secaucus Junction (at least the commuter rail version is/was to have that).

The West Shore line has room for more tracks than are currently on the ROW. Put as much of the former trackage back as possible (i.e from NJT's budget, as CSX was asking for), and CSX doesn't have a leg to stand on insofar as complaints about shared commuter rail.

Irish Chieftain wrote:The West Shore line has room for more tracks than are currently on the ROW. Put as much of the former trackage back as possible (i.e from NJT's budget, as CSX was asking for), and CSX doesn't have a leg to stand on insofar as complaints about shared commuter rail.

This is generally true, although there are a few choke points on the former West Shore. North of Ridgefield Park station, the former northbound local and express tracks have been sold off, and a dozen buildings have been constructed on the right of way. Down by the NYSW engine house, development on both sides has crowded the tracks as well.

On the east side of the current northbound track in Ridgefield are two backbone fiber optic lines, about six feet down. The original deal called for a six foot wide alignment with access rights. Anything calling for an easterly relocation of the tracks over the lines would require discussion.

In that same area, a Hess gasoline pipeline and a Transco (?) natural gas line run side by side between the new southbound track and the NYSW. The location of these pipes was an issue in the construction of the new track. Both pipelines divert to the Hess terminal, just south of I-80.

Absent strong political leadership in favor of commuter service on the West Shore, which hasn't materialized, I wouldn't expect to see heavy rail or light rail there anytime soon.

A good question is how many commuters from West Shore localities drive to PVL stations to use the train (like my uncle did for years and actually enjoyed it). An article in the Bergen Record two decades ago mentioned the possibility of West Shore service "cherry-picking" some riders off the PVL. The article favored Northern Valley restoration in leiu of the West Shore, seemingly to service localities along both routes w/insignificant impact to the PVL.

Too bad NJT and CSX can't engineer a special new connector going off at West End and ovehead like a "high line" over Croxton to mate up to the Northern Valley, sort of like a diagnal span. Then restore the Northern Valley to Spring Valley and onward to Suffern w/connections to MN points further up the line to PJ. Talk about connectivity in Y2K ! I imagine this would ruffle some feathers up in Monsey, NY.

Irish Chieftain wrote:Where did you hear this, exactly...? This is a first. Last I heard, it was still the Northern Branch that was to get HBLRT, not the West Shore. CSX, I suspect, would not be willing to give up any of that ROW for exclusive LRT operation.

Well, it's official (and probably posted on the NJLRT forum, come to think of it):

NJ Transit yesterday scrapped its decade-old plan to extend the Hudson County light rail line deep into Bergen County and instead intends to run diesel trains from Tenafly as part of a project that would cost $500 million.
Basically, either option would run commuter trains along the same route, a little-used freight line that goes through Tenafly, Englewood, Leonia, Palisades Park, Ridgefield, Fairview and North Bergen.
NJ Transit administrators said they decided to move ahead with the alternative using the diesel multiple unit rail cars, because the job would cost half as much and could be done more quickly.

Of course I support this, as I prefer that the Northern Branch remain available for Freight Railroading, and also that a Commuter service makes more sense that a LRT transit system in this instance (of course, this is assuming NJT means Colorado Rail Car-like DMUs, and not Southern Riverline mini-DLRTs - which they don't say either way )

I think you misunderstood. Someone above was claiming that the West Shore line would be seeing LRT.

We have an existing thread about the Northern Branch DMU proposal here if you want to read about that...

When did the terminology for this line shift from West Shore to River Line?
I have always preferred West Shore line as it has more of a historical aspect, IMO.

Well, living in Chatham, I can tell you one thing...executives and highly paid workers do ride the train. A lot of them. Trust me on this. Many of them go to Hoboken and just ride the ferry to WFC to get to their jobs downtown.

When did the terminology for this line shift from West Shore to River Line?

Dunno myself. Always thought it was a Conrail fabrication, like "Chicago Line" for the former New York Central main line...