"What if" 9th st branch extended to Atlantic terminal?

[HBLR]

What would be your thoughts on taking the stub end tunnel of PATH by 9th st and extending it, with several stations, to Atlantic terminal in Brooklyn? Money/funding not an issue, just curious what people think of such an expansion.

[morris&essex4ever]

What would be your thoughts on taking the stub end tunnel of PATH by 9th st and extending it, with several stations, to Atlantic terminal in Brooklyn? Money/funding not an issue, just curious what people think of such an expansion.

You mean the stub end at 33rd street? 9th street is a through station.

[OportRailfan]

What would be your thoughts on taking the stub end tunnel of PATH by 9th st and extending it, with several stations, to Atlantic terminal in Brooklyn? Money/funding not an issue, just curious what people think of such an expansion.

You mean the stub end at 33rd street? 9th street is a through station.

No. At the 9th street curve there is a stub tunnel if you continue straight in the direction of W 9th street. The tunnel is currently hidden from view.

This is referred to as the 9th Street 'Drift'.

In response to the OP, money aside, there is current electrical gear directly in the path that the running rails would take, that would need to find a new home. This would preclude any extension, without finding/buying/creating new space for said equipment. It has also been said that tunnel boring equipment is stored behind the gear. I was never offered a chance to see it, but I'm not sure if the PA would have left this there.

[OportRailfan]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/f ... rleton.jpg

This should clarify any questions. The drift is at the top.

[morris&essex4ever]

Thanks for the link.

[Terry Kennedy]

In response to the OP, money aside, there is current electrical gear directly in the path that the running rails would take, that would need to find a new home. This would preclude any extension, without finding/buying/creating new space for said equipment. It has also been said that tunnel boring equipment is stored behind the gear. I was never offered a chance to see it, but I'm not sure if the PA would have left this there.

The major (PATH-related; not counting things like the difficulty in getting permission to tunnel these days) obstacle would be that this would create the only interlocking in the system where revenue trains would cross the path of trains operating in the opposite direction. This would likely cause enough delays that it would be impractical. Given the amount of effort the H&M expended in re-designing the system they inherited to have flying junctions, I don't see how they planned to use this extension.

There is also electrical equipment between the two in-service tracks, where the northern extension tunnel would have crossed over to the existing NJ-bound tunnel.

You may be remembering something I said about the ring segment erecting machine still being in the southern 9th St. extension. The northern one isn't deep enough for any equipment. The PA doesn't do any cleanup they don't have to - consider the powerhouse, or that Haskin's original airlock is still there (they added a second one "just in case" when they took over the H&M, but seem to have ignored it since then).

[OportRailfan]

In response to the OP, money aside, there is current electrical gear directly in the path that the running rails would take, that would need to find a new home. This would preclude any extension, without finding/buying/creating new space for said equipment. It has also been said that tunnel boring equipment is stored behind the gear. I was never offered a chance to see it, but I'm not sure if the PA would have left this there.

The major (PATH-related; not counting things like the difficulty in getting permission to tunnel these days) obstacle would be that this would create the only interlocking in the system where revenue trains would cross the path of trains operating in the opposite direction. This would likely cause enough delays that it would be impractical. Given the amount of effort the H&M expended in re-designing the system they inherited to have flying junctions, I don't see how they planned to use this extension.

There is also electrical equipment between the two in-service tracks, where the northern extension tunnel would have crossed over to the existing NJ-bound tunnel.

You may be remembering something I said about the ring segment erecting machine still being in the southern 9th St. extension. The northern one isn't deep enough for any equipment. The PA doesn't do any cleanup they don't have to - consider the powerhouse, or that Haskin's original airlock is still there (they added a second one "just in case" when they took over the H&M, but seem to have ignored it since then).

I don't know if you've been through there recently Terry, but they are doing work on the Powerhouse. The windows have been enclosed, I'm not sure about the structural integrity of the roof though, I know there were some sections that collapsed.

[Terry Kennedy]

I don't know if you've been through there recently Terry, but they are doing work on the Powerhouse. The windows have been enclosed, I'm not sure about the structural integrity of the roof though, I know there were some sections that collapsed.

It did get landmark status if I remember right, so they have to prevent further deterioration.

What I meant when I referred to it is that all they use it for is a substation to feed power into the system (since that's where the power cables run to, for the obvious reason). They could have moved the substation and donated the building and land to the city or some preservation group to get it off their hands. By the way, as far as I know, the suction and discharge lines (which are actually mini-tunnels) that run from the powerhouse out into the Hudson* are still there.

* No need for someone to be pedantic and say "No! It's not the Hudson! It's the North River". I know.

[OportRailfan]

I don't know if you've been through there recently Terry, but they are doing work on the Powerhouse. The windows have been enclosed, I'm not sure about the structural integrity of the roof though, I know there were some sections that collapsed.

It did get landmark status if I remember right, so they have to prevent further deterioration.

What I meant when I referred to it is that all they use it for is a substation to feed power into the system (since that's where the power cables run to, for the obvious reason). They could have moved the substation and donated the building and land to the city or some preservation group to get it off their hands. By the way, as far as I know, the suction and discharge lines (which are actually mini-tunnels) that run from the powerhouse out into the Hudson* are still there.

* No need for someone to be pedantic and say "No! It's not the Hudson! It's the North River". I know.

Yeah, but Waterfront is one of the larger substations they have, and they're not going to reinvent the wheel when they don't have to. There are some pretty big transmission feeders coming in there and I don't think anyone wants to pay to reroute them.

[HBLR]

So, money aside, it would seem that the only way to utilize this as an extension would be to steer the north stub to run towards 33rd street, move the equipment somewhere nearby, and make minor adjustments to the signals and switch layout. I'd say that would put any extension in the "possible but last priority" cubby hole. Anyone have thoughts on what the service patterns could/should be??

[Passenger]

What was the reason for not creating that branch in the first place?

Or was the original plan to go that way and not to 33rd Street?

[HBLR]

What was the reason for not creating that branch in the first place?

Or was the original plan to go that way and not to 33rd Street?

I think what happened is ww1, and as others have pointed out, the way the tracks would run, it could pose a problem with revenue trains crossing live tracks carrying 33rd st trains. Remember, they also single track that line from time to time, which would be a real issue if the track shut down was the nj bound side. Having a wye style interlocking would make the most sense.

The extension originally was, according to maps ive seen, supposed to extend to Astor place. Today that would make no sense, and a connection to new jersey in the event the prr tunnels are not operational, would be a really good idea, especially since lirr also uses Penn station. As well it could provide a second option for people who just want to get to Newark or Newark airport.

Is there space in Brooklyn for the tunnel? What would the route be, and where would you think to put stations?

[Kamen Rider]

PATH and the H&M before it, are for the purpose of traviling between Manhattan and New Jersey. If you want to go to Brooklyn... take the subway. The reason the line never went anywhere was becuase the IRT was a feirce defender of it's business. Remember that this is long before the IND came along, there is no concpet of public operation of the transit system, this is a business. These are two private compaines, there is no way to force them to get along. The IRT had a history of picking fights. They went into an absolute fit when the BRT requested the rights to a Dual System Manhattan mainline, to the point the city threatened to give the BRT the entire dual contracts system.

By the time the H&M opened, the Joralemon Street Tubes were one month into service and the line to Flatbush and Atlantic was already only 4 months from opening.

[HBLR]

PATH and the H&M before it, are for the purpose of traviling between Manhattan and New Jersey. If you want to go to Brooklyn... take the subway. The reason the line never went anywhere was becuase the IRT was a feirce defender of it's business. Remember that this is long before the IND came along, there is no concpet of public operation of the transit system, this is a business. These are two private compaines, there is no way to force them to get along. The IRT had a history of picking fights. They went into an absolute fit when the BRT requested the rights to a Dual System Manhattan mainline, to the point the city threatened to give the BRT the entire dual contracts system.

By the time the H&M opened, the Joralemon Street Tubes were one month into service and the line to Flatbush and Atlantic was already only 4 months from opening.

I was thinking since LIRR was a PRR operation at the time, it could have been a way to provide a secondary connection to the lines that are now closed to low rider numbers. I understand the cut-throat atmosphere of the passenger traction industry in that era, but it could have helped LIRR and PRR a great deal, i guess that's where i got the idea from, but if you applied it today it could boost rider numbers on the city terminal zone and other somewhat neglected areas of LIRR....

[Kamen Rider]

Penn station was a very expensive and b very risky. The PRR only even bought the LIRR becuase the LIRR had the rights to build the tunnels the PRR needed. I don;t think they would have dumped even more money into the H&M for extra tunnels they could never use. PRR /LIRR use standard 10 foot loading gauge. PATH doesn't.