MNRR West of Hudson (WoH) Study - Stewart Airport

[finsuburbia]

I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Remember, the money isn't coming from NJT or MN but rather their rich uncle PANYNJ.

[Jishnu]

I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Remember, the money isn't coming from NJT or MN but rather their rich uncle PANYNJ.

Still no justification for digging through mountains and raising enormous embankments to straighten that particular curve. Much more can be gained in running time reduction by doing many things that are less expensive.

[SecaucusJunction]

You are correct in stating that the PANJNY is more apt to spend the money than NJT, MN or any state around, but they are smart with how they will spend it. If straightening that curve would cause a lot more people to ride the train to the airport, then they would probably straighten it... but I think that the curve will cause trains less than 30 seconds. I'd say adding track north of Waldwick will cause delays to ease.

[finsuburbia]

I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Remember, the money isn't coming from NJT or MN but rather their rich uncle PANYNJ.

Still no justification for digging through mountains and raising enormous embankments to straighten that particular curve. Much more can be gained in running time reduction by doing many things that are less expensive.

True, although it seems as though the s-curve could be handled by a viaduct from Wyckoff Ave to a little east of Hollywood ave over the lakeland storage site. (still very expensive and more expensive to maintain than an embankment).

Still what other improvements could be made aside from additional track? Would it be possible for any segments to get up to Class 6?

[SecaucusJunction]

WADR, you can't honestly think they are going to demolish an entire self-storage facility and office park just to build an expensive viaduct for a curve saving commuters a total of 15-30 seconds at most?

No way this line could be brought up to Class 6 standards without a MAJOR grade separation project for a loooooooong stretch. It runs through too many towns and there are crossings everywhere. North of Suffern, it is a bit more rural, but the curves west of Tuxedo and Mooda Viaduct will slow you down.

The best bet would be to replace the third track west of Waldwick and put in a second track north of Sterling. Better cab signals could help raise speeds and track improvements on existing track could help also. Maybe increasing speeds through curves by tilting tracks or something could help too.

[finsuburbia]

Perhaps I moved too much into rail-fantasy land; although technically, it could be built over the storage site (it probably wouldn't be worth it with the complications it would add to construction).

You can go up to class 7 without grade separation.

Curve realignments (if they are worth it) would be generally much easier in rural areas because of lower property values (and fewer takings generally).

According to the PA's strategic plan, they projected to invest $1 billion in the rail link to Stewart (I am not sure how that squares with the $600+ million from the article).

[SecaucusJunction]

That $1 Billion sounds accurate since estimates to add a second track north of Sterling and building a spur to the airport was around $580 Million. Maybe the rest of that money will be for track/signal improvements south of Suffern.

[drewh]

Before $1 billion is spent on an airport that has such low traffic, I'd rather the PA spend the money extending PATH to EWR, or providing a direct ride to JFK from Manhattan (i.e. one that does not need a transfer at Jamaica).

Rail transit is supposed to serve a lot of riders. Public money should be spent where there is a large potential. With 156K passengers per year, 3000 per week, or an average of less than 500 a day, how many do you think are going to take that train? Even if 10% did we're talking 50 people per day - hardly worth the kind of expenditure we are talking about here. Let the airport expand to a greater percentage of the market and then talk about rail access. There are many other rail projects that the PA could better spend that money on.

[Irish Chieftain]

With 156K passengers per year, 3000 per week, or an average of less than 500 a day, how many do you think are going to take that train?

You're assuming that air service into SWF is going to remain static. Further, you're also using an argument similar to those that Amtrak opponents use to justify their position against the expansion of that rail entity's service.

If, per oft-repeated anecdote, the revenue streams from airport parking continue to be a chief concern of the PANYNJ when it comes to EWR, JFK and LGA, expect the Port Authority to remain prejudiced against establishing direct rail links into those airports, despite the sense it makes.

[finsuburbia]

Before $1 billion is spent on an airport that has such low traffic, I'd rather the PA spend the money extending PATH to EWR, or providing a direct ride to JFK from Manhattan (i.e. one that does not need a transfer at Jamaica).

Rail transit is supposed to serve a lot of riders. Public money should be spent where there is a large potential. With 156K passengers per year, 3000 per week, or an average of less than 500 a day, how many do you think are going to take that train? Even if 10% did we're talking 50 people per day - hardly worth the kind of expenditure we are talking about here. Let the airport expand to a greater percentage of the market and then talk about rail access. There are many other rail projects that the PA could better spend that money on.

As a regular user of the Main/Bergen, the investments intended for Stewart Airport could have the side benefit of improving the line regardless of what happens at Stewart. It gives the opportunity for investments that would not ordinarily have been justified in the tight NJ transit capital budget. NJ Transit has little incentive at this point to improve the MAS or the capacity of the line, but the PA does. This is the same as how when Amtrak makes an investment on the NEC for the Acela, there can be a side benefit for other NEC users (regardless that the NEC still needs substantially more investment. I commute on the Main/Bergen to Secaucus and then reverse commute on the NEC so I know the delays).

PA's public money is different than the public money that NJ transit has. While NJ Transit's capital funds come mainly from gas tax dollars sunk into the transportation trust fund, the PA gets its money from user fees on its assets. Not saying that they should waste it, but its not the same as freely spending tax dollars.

[finsuburbia]

Interesting thought too.

I calculated (using google maps) the track mileage for the Main/Bergen/PJ to Stewart if they double track from CP Sterling to Stewart and Triple track Waldwick to Suffern as roughly 157 miles.

The NEC electrification from New Haven to Boston was 157 track miles so at least 314 route miles and (officially) cost $321 million.

Just a thought.

[Jishnu]

Interesting thought too.

I calculated (using google maps) the track mileage for the Main/Bergen/PJ to Stewart if they double track from CP Sterling to Stewart and Triple track Waldwick to Suffern as roughly 157 miles.

The NEC electrification from New Haven to Boston was 157 track miles so at least 314 route miles and (officially) cost $321 million.

Just a thought.

I think electrifying the Main-bergen Lines and all the way to Stewert (to justify using PA funds to do this) would be an excellent and justifiable investment.

[SecaucusJunction]

NJT doesnt have any real motivation for themselves to do drastic repairs on the Main/Bergen Line or any other line. Unfortunately, if you commute to NYC from NJ, you really have no other choice. Want to forget about the train and take the bus? Go for it... they own those too so they dont care! I wouldnt look for electrification of the Main/Bergen any time soon. As for the rail link, stopping for people in Northern NJ/Southeast NY is hard... while you want to get all of the people you can from this area, stopping at stations will just consume more time and make fewer people from NYC use it. Perhaps a train stopping at Hoboken, Secaucus, Rutherford, Radburn, Ridgewood, Rt 17, Suffern, Harriman and Stewart could work. Locals off the Main Line could change trains at Ridgewood. I would also say that Port Jervis local trains operating express south of Suffern should go to hourly off peak as well with new double track in place. Rush hour growth on this line has been explosive and this would be a good opportunity for great ridership increases on the line. Also, passengers from Port Jervis could change trains at Salisbury to get to the airport.

[finsuburbia]

NJT doesnt have any real motivation for themselves to do drastic repairs on the Main/Bergen Line or any other line. Unfortunately, if you commute to NYC from NJ, you really have no other choice. Want to forget about the train and take the bus? Go for it... they own those too so they dont care! I wouldnt look for electrification of the Main/Bergen any time soon. As for the rail link, stopping for people in Northern NJ/Southeast NY is hard... while you want to get all of the people you can from this area, stopping at stations will just consume more time and make fewer people from NYC use it. Perhaps a train stopping at Hoboken, Secaucus, Rutherford, Radburn, Ridgewood, Rt 17, Suffern, Harriman and Stewart could work. Locals off the Main Line could change trains at Ridgewood. I would also say that Port Jervis local trains operating express south of Suffern should go to hourly off peak as well with new double track in place. Rush hour growth on this line has been explosive and this would be a good opportunity for great ridership increases on the line. Also, passengers from Port Jervis could change trains at Salisbury to get to the airport.

NJ Transit does not operate any buses north of Ridgewood on the Main/Bergen Corridor. You need to ride CoachUSA for bus service. Ridgewood's NJ Transit bus is generally on par or slower than the train to Midtown even with the transfer at Secaucus.

Insofar as them not caring, I'm not sure I would say that. It just that when it comes to improving service (especially speeds), there are other priorities for NJ Transit to be spending their capital budget on. I don't blame them. As far as speed goes, if my one trip from MSU is typical, the Main/Bergen flys in comparison to the Montclair Boonton (I felt like I could walk faster to Montclair Heights from MSU).

That being said, it is in the P.A.'s interest to make substantial speed improvements to the line if they want people to use it to connect to Stewart, especially from NYC. If its too slow, the link from Salisbury will be a boondoggle if its slower/on par with the bus/car. Remember, we aren't talking about EWR or JFK so the traffic isn't nearly as much of a deterrent to driving (although Thruway traffic can still be pretty rough at places). But if the extra investment is made to speed up the line, the increase in ridership would be exponential.

Although I doubt that its currently in the cards, electrification seems like it would be a worthwhile investment because it would allow semi-expresses and locals to more feasibly serve Stewart at certain times of the day. This is especially important considering that at least two stations are being proposed to be added to the Bergen Line: Wesmont Station and EnCap (although I have my doubts about the latter).

[finsuburbia]

New article in the Journal News

Metro-North seeks to bring transit to Stewart airport