Blue Line Extension ROW

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

Why would commuter rail have needed to be cannibalized? The Eastern Route trackbed is 4-track width from the Lynn side of the river to the tunnel incline, except for more recently-constructed grade crossing elimination road overpasses every bridge on that side is either 4-track width decks or 4-track width abutments that were later redecked to 2-tracks. And there's not even a lot of places where abutters have encroached...area around Swampscott station is about the only tight fit I can see. You wouldn't likely need to cannibalize even one of the existing tracks to get out to to Salem, which is why a past-Lynn extension to Salem is still an unrated option on the MPO 2030 Universe of Projects. Get from Wonderland to the other side of the river, and construct the second Salem tunnel...that's your ROW 'acquisition' for a BL extension that far.

Now...all the way to Beverly is a little nutty. But why not Peabody/128 on the North Shore Mall stub of the proposed Peabody/Davers CR? A lot more inner-suburb, right by the 95/128 split and Route 1 is a much better park-and-ride terminus, Peabody Square a major destination in its own right, no CR routes to block (except for the Danvers stub, but high-frequency service trumps the second stub), shopping and a major medical center at the end of the line. That makes good sense if you're studying termini at 128. Hosing two busy CR routes and cutting off the entire outside-128 North Shore from a one-seat ride to Boston to extend rapid-transit to a place that really has little need for or interest in it is a real odd thing to probe in the kind of depth that '95 study did.

[AutisticPsycho]

State: Blue Line not coming to Lynn

By David Liscio / The Daily Item
LYNN - Don't stand on the rail platform waiting for the Blue Line to arrive in Central Square, because it's not coming soon.

That's the word from state Transportation Secretary Jeffrey Mullan, who spoke Thursday at the North Shore Alliance for Economic Development meeting in Lynn.

Mullan said extending the Blue Line rapid-transit rail from its terminus at Wonderland Station in Revere north to Lynn is not part of the 30-year plan by the state Department of Transportation (DOT).

Rest of the story here: http://itemlive.com/articles/2010/09/24/news/news01.txt

[BostonUrbEx]

@the article posted: What's wrong with the selection of a route? I think they could easily bang out a ROW by first factoring in GE. Is the ROW wide enough between the GE buildings for 4 tracks? Is GE willing to give up land here if necessary? Do they actively/regularly use the grade crossing or the River Works stop (which the Blue Line would eliminate, essentially)? If they are fine with selling land for the ROW and the loss of the crossing and River Works, then the next thing that should be taken into account is bridges, as current Saugus River boating traffic will hopefully be unimpeded.

With the Lynnway interchange, I would assume a BRB&L Blue Line would have to duck under, then quickly climb over the Saugus River. I don't really have any measurements, but I think the grade would be to great to avoid some sort of opening bridge. And I don't think you want a lift bridge or anything like that on a rapid transit line (speaking of which, does such a thing exist?). Following the Newburyport/Rockport Line, you could probably have greater clearance as you have more room for the inclines.



Obviously, costs and funds will play a part throughout the process, too. But I'm not sure what exactly is leading to this complete divide on the routing (at least, according to the T there's some differing opinions...). I'm pretty sure they can hammer something out if they were serious about this, but they're not, they're screwing around with the South Coast. If GE doesn't want to play ball, then you immediately have to turn to the BRB&L. If you need an opening bridge, you're going to have to see what GE wants. If you just can't do it, or they're asking for quite a deal, you have to go with the opening bridge, and give some people the boot (that's assuming the ROW is even owned by the T, is it? Can they actually clear them off the ROW?).

[trainhq]

Well, it's no surprise to me that they're not going to build it. I worked on a planning study on the corridor
several years ago, and there are basically about two or three reasons why it isn't going to happen.

1. Lynn already has commuter rail service, and, relative to most lines, pretty frequent service too. Blue
Line to Lynn would be an improvement, but not all that big a one.

2. There's a large marsh gap where there are no residents. This means that the line would have a relatively
high cost per rider due to the greater distances involved.

3. There are a lot of other areas (read Green Line to Somerville) which don't have service at all and really need
something; they have higher priority over limited (on non-existent) capital resources.

So folks, that's about it. I'd say Blue Line to Lynn won't happen in my lifetime, and I'm about 50. Sorry, but Lynn
is out of luck.

[Marley]

You really can't compare commuter rail service and rapid transit service though. Weekday Mid-day service is about 1 train an hour at best. A blue line stop in Lynn would provide free transfers throughout the system.

It's Lynn's size and proximity to Boston that warrant this project. I am curious how DC is able to extend their expensive rapid transit lines to areas of much lower density over longer distances, also of lower density.

Do you know that they are complaining about how long(10 years) it took for their Silver line to start construction. DC Metro's silver line is a 25 mile(with some lengthy underground portions) extension into low density areas that will stop at Dulles and terminate some point after. The line stops in Tyson's corner for 4 stops, but that area is a major area of office parks and will still be inadequately served once the line reaches it. If you're mad about our Silver line, please don't read about DC's silver line. I know I am getting off topic here, but I think you get my drift. If DC is able to build this beast(25 miles) we should be able to extend our Blue line (2?) miles north th Lynn, an area with a much greater density. We need to question how they are able to do this and why we are not. I don't buy the MBTA's arguments.

[doublebell]

You also would also have to provide a lot more security in Lynn. Almost nobody uses the large garage at the rail station there as it is not a safe place.

I do not see this extension happening in any of our lifetimes.

John, the guy in the white car with the wing on back

[jonnhrr]

With the Lynnway interchange, I would assume a BRB&L Blue Line would have to duck under, then quickly climb over the Saugus River. I don't really have any measurements, but I think the grade would be to great to avoid some sort of opening bridge. And I don't think you want a lift bridge or anything like that on a rapid transit line (speaking of which, does such a thing exist?).

PATH line to Newark NJ runs over a lift bridge just east of the Newark station. You can see it from a passing Amtrak train, one interesting feature is "smash boards" that the train literally has to smash through if it tries to pass the signals while the bridge is open.

Also I have seen video of the 3rd Ave. El in NY that ran over a swing bridge (Harlem River?) , the video shows the bridge opening.

Not that having a movable bridge on a rapid transit line is a good idea, especially in a location with heavy river traffic.

Jon

[octr202]

Movable bridges on a rapid transit line? Try Chicago (anyplace the El crosses the Chicago River).

[atsf sp]

Movable bridges on a rapid transit line? Try Chicago (anyplace the El crosses the Chicago River).

Yeah but those bridges do not raise that frequently.

[boblothrope]

Movable bridges on a rapid transit line? Try Chicago (anyplace the El crosses the Chicago River).

In NYC, there's the A train to the Rockaways, and the 1 train across the Broadway Bridge. The latter bridge was replaced in 1960, with only a 3-day suspension of subway service!

[Teamdriver]

I think the solution is to build an elevated structure along and above Route 1A until the line crosses over into Lynn, then use the two vacant tracks on the commuter rail line inside Lynn.

Seattle has built some very attractive, sleek elevated structures for its light rail extansion to its airport recently. That would look good along Route 1A

Dude ..... Steel over the Lynnway Isnt that the demolition /speedway combination road? That would make for some gruesome TV news footage.......

[jamesinclair]

Not to mention Amtrak with the acela, which deals with numerous lift bridges.

[sery2831]

Alright, we are off topic! No more bridge discussion unless it has to do with crossing the Saugus River.

[Arlington]

You really can't compare commuter rail service and rapid transit service though. Weekday Mid-day service is about 1 train an hour at best. A blue line stop in Lynn would provide free transfers throughout the system.

It's Lynn's size and proximity to Boston that warrant this project. I am curious how DC is able to extend their expensive rapid transit lines to areas of much lower density over longer distances, also of lower density.

Do you know that they are complaining about how long(10 years) it took for their Silver line to start construction. DC Metro's silver line is a 25 mile(with some lengthy underground portions) extension into low density areas that will stop at Dulles and terminate some point after. The line stops in Tyson's corner for 4 stops, but that area is a major area of office parks and will still be inadequately served once the line reaches it. If you're mad about our Silver line, please don't read about DC's silver line. I know I am getting off topic here, but I think you get my drift. If DC is able to build this beast(25 miles) we should be able to extend our Blue line (2?) miles north th Lynn, an area with a much greater density. We need to question how they are able to do this and why we are not. I don't buy the MBTA's arguments.

The key thing is that Dulles's connection to downtown DC necessarily passes through Tysons, while Logan already has its connection, and does not need a spur beyond to Lynn.

Tysons corner has a night-time population of 20,000 but a daytime population of 100,000. With transit, they expect to double the daytime population to 200,000 by 2030, and spend $750m on a grid of streets. See http://www.city-data.com/forum/city-vs- ... ggest.html And WMATA's silver line has a large chunk of its cost covered by the Airport (11m pax annually vs Logan's 13m). Beyond the airport, there's only going to be one more stop. And today there's no rail out there at all.

Lynn has commuter rail and bus service. The subway would cannibalize those. At Tysons, there isn't transit to cannibalize.

Lynn may need (another) connection to the airport and downtown, but the airport and downtown don't need (another) connection to Lynn.

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

You really can't compare commuter rail service and rapid transit service though. Weekday Mid-day service is about 1 train an hour at best. A blue line stop in Lynn would provide free transfers throughout the system.

It's Lynn's size and proximity to Boston that warrant this project. I am curious how DC is able to extend their expensive rapid transit lines to areas of much lower density over longer distances, also of lower density.

Do you know that they are complaining about how long(10 years) it took for their Silver line to start construction. DC Metro's silver line is a 25 mile(with some lengthy underground portions) extension into low density areas that will stop at Dulles and terminate some point after. The line stops in Tyson's corner for 4 stops, but that area is a major area of office parks and will still be inadequately served once the line reaches it. If you're mad about our Silver line, please don't read about DC's silver line. I know I am getting off topic here, but I think you get my drift. If DC is able to build this beast(25 miles) we should be able to extend our Blue line (2?) miles north th Lynn, an area with a much greater density. We need to question how they are able to do this and why we are not. I don't buy the MBTA's arguments.

The key thing is that Dulles's connection to downtown DC necessarily passes through Tysons, while Logan already has its connection, and does not need a spur beyond to Lynn.

Tysons corner has a night-time population of 20,000 but a daytime population of 100,000. With transit, they expect to double the daytime population to 200,000 by 2030, and spend $750m on a grid of streets. See http://www.city-data.com/forum/city-vs- ... ggest.html And WMATA's silver line has a large chunk of its cost covered by the Airport (11m pax annually vs Logan's 13m). Beyond the airport, there's only going to be one more stop. And today there's no rail out there at all.

Lynn has commuter rail and bus service. The subway would cannibalize those. At Tysons, there isn't transit to cannibalize.

Lynn may need (another) connection to the airport and downtown, but the airport and downtown don't need (another) connection to Lynn.

CR would not be cannibalized by the Blue Line. Eastern Route has 4-track width from the Lynn side of the river all the way to the Salem tunnel's south portal. All of the bridges except a rebuilt one in Swampscott have 2 empty track berths. It would be pretty effortless to run the BL alongside in Lynn. The bulk of the ROW construction cost would be grafting it onto the Eastern Route from the river south with widened Saugus draw, marsh embankment, and second bridge where the ROW is currently max 2-track width. Or rebuilting the BRB&L ROW through Revere and putting in a new draw on the alternative routing.

As for the buses, Lynn NEEDS this because it's the largest bus terminal in the system with zero subway access in walking distance. There are 11 routes terminating there. 4 of them dual-pronged expresses with "W" alternates that thru-route to Wonderland for lack of other options. There's 5 routes paralleling the CR on Route 107, 4 on 1A along the BRB&L. That's truly massive amount of route consolidation they can do by eliminating so many duplicates. Let the Lynn routes fan out of Lynn, the Revere routes and Boston expresses fan out of Wonderland and Chelsea CR, get virtually everything off 107 through the marsh where there's no buildings, and send just locals down 1A. It would take a ton of load off Lynn Garage if it had fewer express routes to feed. All these reasons are why this extension's been desired for SIXTY-FIVE YEARS. No amount of downplaying or starving of it that they try can disguise how badly this has been needed for decades now.