Blue Line Extension ROW

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote: CR would not be cannibalized by the Blue Line. Eastern Route has 4-track width from the Lynn side of the river all the way to the Salem tunnel's south portal. All of the bridges except a rebuilt one in Swampscott have 2 empty track berths. It would be pretty effortless to run the BL alongside in Lynn. The bulk of the ROW construction cost would be grafting it onto the Eastern Route from the river south with widened Saugus draw, marsh embankment, and second bridge where the ROW is currently max 2-track width. Or rebuilting the BRB&L ROW through Revere and putting in a new draw on the alternative routing.

As for the buses, Lynn NEEDS this because it's the largest bus terminal in the system with zero subway access in walking distance. There are 11 routes terminating there. 4 of them dual-pronged expresses with "W" alternates that thru-route to Wonderland for lack of other options. There's 5 routes paralleling the CR on Route 107, 4 on 1A along the BRB&L. That's truly massive amount of route consolidation they can do by eliminating so many duplicates. Let the Lynn routes fan out of Lynn, the Revere routes and Boston expresses fan out of Wonderland and Chelsea CR, get virtually everything off 107 through the marsh where there's no buildings, and send just locals down 1A. It would take a ton of load off Lynn Garage if it had fewer express routes to feed. All these reasons are why this extension's been desired for SIXTY-FIVE YEARS. No amount of downplaying or starving of it that they try can disguise how badly this has been needed for decades now.

Cannibalization is a marketing term meaning "take customers from". Quite sensibly, if you want to justify new dollars for new infrastructure you have to show that you can add new customers (not just cannibalize them from CR or Bus).

There are basically only two ways to "win" new customers: entice people out of cars, or entice developers to put people in. The Tysons Corner subway is justified by both: converting today's 80,000 commuters to transit (from single-occupant cars)l, and claiming to serve the majority of the 100,000 new workers that will be added.

Saying "we'll stop using the bus" is not a way to win yourself a new rail line.

Arlington wrote:

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote: CR would not be cannibalized by the Blue Line. Eastern Route has 4-track width from the Lynn side of the river all the way to the Salem tunnel's south portal. All of the bridges except a rebuilt one in Swampscott have 2 empty track berths. It would be pretty effortless to run the BL alongside in Lynn. The bulk of the ROW construction cost would be grafting it onto the Eastern Route from the river south with widened Saugus draw, marsh embankment, and second bridge where the ROW is currently max 2-track width. Or rebuilting the BRB&L ROW through Revere and putting in a new draw on the alternative routing.

As for the buses, Lynn NEEDS this because it's the largest bus terminal in the system with zero subway access in walking distance. There are 11 routes terminating there. 4 of them dual-pronged expresses with "W" alternates that thru-route to Wonderland for lack of other options. There's 5 routes paralleling the CR on Route 107, 4 on 1A along the BRB&L. That's truly massive amount of route consolidation they can do by eliminating so many duplicates. Let the Lynn routes fan out of Lynn, the Revere routes and Boston expresses fan out of Wonderland and Chelsea CR, get virtually everything off 107 through the marsh where there's no buildings, and send just locals down 1A. It would take a ton of load off Lynn Garage if it had fewer express routes to feed. All these reasons are why this extension's been desired for SIXTY-FIVE YEARS. No amount of downplaying or starving of it that they try can disguise how badly this has been needed for decades now.

Cannibalization is a marketing term meaning "take customers from". Quite sensibly, if you want to justify new dollars for new infrastructure you have to show that you can add new customers (not just cannibalize them from CR or Bus).

There are basically only two ways to "win" new customers: entice people out of cars, or entice developers to put people in. The Tysons Corner subway is justified by both: converting today's 80,000 commuters to transit (from single-occupant cars)l, and claiming to serve the majority of the 100,000 new workers that will be added.

Saying "we'll stop using the bus" is not a way to win yourself a new rail line.

No. Read the ridership projections: http://www.bostonmpo.org/bostonmpo/pmt-old/PMT-3.pdf. +7,900 new transit riders, all modes. +21,000 new riders on the Blue Line. That is the largest increase in all-new transit ridership of any proposed MBTA expansion project save for the Urban Ring Phases II & III and the North-South Rail Link. Even more than the Green Line extension. It does not replace bus transfers or ridership. It enhances them and replaces car commutes. The travel times are way too long now because every route heading south has to truck it long distance and/or loop into Wonderland, and the length of the routes makes the bulk of them higher-fare expresses. That last point is particularly key...Lynn is the only huge terminal with a majority of the routes being high fares, so service is not economically accessible to poor people. Relieving the long-haul routes means they can run a lot more locals at shorter distances, better travel times, and at regular fare. It's a crippled transit hub today. The ridership demand is far, far over current utilization because of the access constraints on that terminal.

Again, this is why it's been on the books for sixty-five years and has overwhelming support in the city of Lynn.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote: No. Read the ridership projections: http://www.bostonmpo.org/bostonmpo/pmt-old/PMT-3.pdf. +7,900 new transit riders, all modes. +21,000 new riders on the Blue Line. That is the largest increase in all-new transit ridership of any proposed MBTA expansion project save for the Urban Ring Phases II & III and the North-South Rail Link. Even more than the Green Line extension. It does not replace bus transfers or ridership. It enhances them and replaces car commutes. The travel times are way too long now because every route heading south has to truck it long distance and/or loop into Wonderland, and the length of the routes makes the bulk of them higher-fare expresses. That last point is particularly key...Lynn is the only huge terminal with a majority of the routes being high fares, so service is not economically accessible to poor people. Relieving the long-haul routes means they can run a lot more locals at shorter distances, better travel times, and at regular fare. It's a crippled transit hub today. The ridership demand is far, far over current utilization because of the access constraints on that terminal.

Again, this is why it's been on the books for sixty-five years and has overwhelming support in the city of Lynn.

Nice point. I'm happy to be corrected by a man with the facts at his command It's what makes it great to be here.

I have to step back to the funding and through-traffic point: Dulles Airport is paying partly for (and project-managing) the extension of the subway, and projecting 38,000 new transit riders (with 86,000 total daily riders). (http://www.dullesmetro.com/pdfs/addendum_appendixf.pdf) with a price tag of $3billion or so, they're paying on the order of $80,000 in capital costs per new rider. That's roughly 2x more expensive than the Blue Line to Lynn, so you'd want the Lynn extension to get funded first.

Lynn should have happened instead of Greenbush, and before the South Coast extensions. That it hasn't is one of the perils of relying on political entities (and deals with the CLF) to build these projects: they're not necessarily going to be defensible through math.

The four track wide ROW ends just west of the Swampscott station. East of that the two track ROW goes through wet areas. It would take a major fight to get the ROW widened.

I donated a book that was a study from over 100 years ago to widen things through Salem to the Walker Collection at the Beverly Historical Society. You can see it there.

Given the state of affairs, there is not enough money to pay for what would be an extremely expensive job.
John, the guy in the white car with the wing on back

Salem would probably like the Blue Line if it merely ran under the street downtown. But... and this is a big but... residents, and especially business owners, would flip out over the construction. Considering what costs would likely be, it would have to be cut and cover. And there's just no way that's going to go well. Boring a 3 or 4 track wide tunnel would probably be a tremendous cost, and consider that it would all be for just one more station.

username wrote:It (obviously) makes sense to expand to lynn, but what do you guys think about going to Salem? (Going to Beverly is rediculous) Is there any space for the Blue Line in Salem? They only way I could see the blue line going to Salem is if they build that garage at Salem Station, parking in that station would need to be moved + increased if the line were to end at the current Salem Station of the CR. Would it even be feasible to build another under Salem tunnel?

The MPO document cited (http://www.bostonmpo.org/bostonmpo/pmt-old/PMT-3.pdf) captures both the inner and outer bounds of what's possible/likely, and Salem does pretty well (see page 35)...but you gotta get to Lynn first.

The MPO plan, by the way, says the terminus would likely be at the *south* end of the CR tunnel. The map shows two very separate dots for the CR and BL stations. I guess the idea is that any CR-BL connections would be made in Lynn.

Just the Lynn-Salem segment is another +8900 all-new transit riders on top of the Wonderland-Lynn +7900, and another +15500 Blue Line riders on top of Wonderland-Lynn's +21000. Huuuuuuuuuuuuge untapped transit corridor...pretty much "Braintree Line North" in wall-to-wall commuters. Salem has 9 bus lines, 4 thru-routing to Lynn and 2 going all the way to Boston with that alt "W" Wonderland routing. Swampscott's also got 4 lines and there's 4 to Marblehead via Lynn and Swampscott, including more of those either-Boston-or-Wonderland split routes. It only seems 'sparser' because Lynn terminal is the size of Malden Ctr. in route density and can't sniff any rapid transit. North of there you have little choice but to drive because those incredibly long bus routes--over the region's most congested roads and under the high express fare--don't come close to cutting it. CR would have to go to almost Fairmount-level frequency to convert these non-riders into riders. True demand's much more artificially repressed here than it is, say, along the Reading Line where the OL extension was proposed.


As for the ROW, it narrows from 4-track at Swampscott station where the old Marblehead loop used to split off. Burrill St. bridge at the end of the platform was reconstructed some decades ago to 2-track, but the ballast past it still looks full-4. East side of the ROW is abutted by houses through Swampscott, but west side is pretty much all parking lots and repurposed warehouses from Swampscott station to Essex St. bridge. Might already be on a RR-owned easement since that's markedly asymmetrical encroachment levels. I wonder if any land acquisition is required at all. So 1 bridge widening, possibly 2 overpass widenings in Swampscott. From there it's back out in the woods...swings near but not over any marshland. Then the ballast goes 4-wide again at the Jefferson Ave. overpass into the former freight yard. Old yard may already have had ownership bequeathed from B&M to the T years ago. There's going to be an infill CR stop put in at South Salem in the much shorter term to serve demand near Salem State U. In fact, the old CR stop used to be at the south portal before it switched to the other end. So if rapid-transit were to terminate short of the tunnel there'd likely be a straight transfer.

Second Salem tunnel is a whole other state-rated project unto itself for CR. Current tunnel's 1-track, so there's no way to open up that pinch point without a second bore. This is why you can't solve the frequency problem by running a conga line of DMU's out there when that one tunnel track is already feeding 2 branches and possibly a third with the Peabody/Danvers proposal. On 15-20 year as-is ridership growth the tunnel becomes one of those 'take your medicine' type unavoidable infrastructure projects. Much like painful double-tracking work they'll have to sandwich around the Red Line on the Old Colony. *IF* Lynn were actually anyone's priority maybe they'd have some more attractive service options to choose from on how to do that second tunnel.

MBTA's North Shore Transit Improvements study has more info on S. Salem, the tunnel, and the shorter-term improvements to the corridor: http://www.mbta.com/about_the_mbta/t_pr ... sp?id=1012 (Chapters 3 & 4 the relevant docs).

Another thing that favors Blue Line expansion is that due to roads and geography, rail transit from Lynn and other North Shore points would be as fast or even faster than driving times to downtown, at least during commuter hours. Lynn also seems like one of those points that would have fairly high ridership during "off peak" hours as well.

A year or two ago, this discussion was active and I did a sketch comparison of DMUs for North Station - Lynn service vs. the Blue Line. DMUs cost a lot less to buy and operate, make the trip faster and with a relatively modest investment can provide 15 min. service intervals for as long as there is demand (and Chelsea gets service too). The RR trip can become a lot faster if you spend some capital on grade crossing elimination in Chelsea.

The issue really comes down to fares. Most of the drive for the Blue Line is the hope that a trip downtown will cost $1.70 vs. $4.75 for commuter rail plus a transfer to the subway. And this can be solved by a subsidized "Lynn Ticket" good for a round trip and two subway rides, sold only in Lynn; the operating cost of the Blue Line extension alone should cover the cost difference for a great many people every year.

Why hasnt this been pushed more if all the numbers say its an obvious extension?

Do the politicians in the area not know hot to lobby?

username wrote:For example, they just tore up all the tracks in my town to build a bike path, something that will lead to crime and decreasing property values because of it. Not to mention that it will be under-utilized, and will make a rail extension to Danvers near impossible now. (Need funding for new ROW if it's going to the center of town)

Thoughts?

This isn't the forum for it, but your view on rails-to-trails is contrary to the experience in East Boston, Somerville, Cambridge, Arlington, Lexington, and The Berkshires and Goffstown NH. I can't think of any place where rail-trail has netted additional crime or lower property values, but for every one you'd come up with, I'd come up with four or more counter-examples (see above).

There's a better case to be made that abandoned ROWs attract trash and crime and lower property values. If Lynn extension does go along the CR ROW, it makes sense that the Point of Pines ROW gets made into a bike path.

Arlington wrote:If Lynn extension does go along the CR ROW, it makes sense that the Point of Pines ROW gets made into a bike path.

This is a really good idea, never thought of it before. IMO, it would be better than the Blue Line through Point of Pines and an infrequently used station there (which I would expect to happen if it goes that way). This way, the Blue Line can still collect riders from Point of Pines via a collector path to Wonderland.


I have a question for everyone though: How many extra sets, if any, does the Blue Line have during peak headways? How many more, if any would be needed for an extension to Lynn/Swampscott? to Salem? Could Orient Heights hold these? Where would another yard be constructed, if necessary? (just south of the Salem tunnel actually looks really good where the abandoned freight yard is, perhaps making an extension to Salem even more worth-its-while)

I would route the Blue Line to avoid Point Of Pines. The blue markers represent station locations.

username wrote:the problem is that the politicians and people in the area could care less, for many it's still easy and "cheap" to just hop in their car, many are ignorant to other forms of transit here, and in the US in general.

For example, they just tore up all the tracks in my town to build a bike path, something that will lead to crime and decreasing property values because of it. Not to mention that it will be under-utilized, and will make a rail extension to Danvers near impossible now. (Need funding for new ROW if it's going to the center of town)

I really want to see some kind of rail connection to Peabody and then the malls, it makes sense with both the mall, 114 + 128, and Leahy Clinic all directly around it. If it isn't the blue line, then it has to be some kind of MU with much more frequent trips than the current CR. Maybe a shuttle between Lynn, Swampscott, Salem, Peabody and then the Malls? It would need double tracking in a new Salem tunnel, although it could just widen it to two tracks rather than going the whole nine yards and putting in double tracked subway lines. Lynn would need a new station, so that MU's could do layovers. Maybe the blue line can extend closer into Lynn, and a new station for both could be built.

Thoughts? This seems the best way to do a line to Peabody + the malls, because it needs more frequent but smaller trains, but rapid transit would be pushing it.

There is a rated commuter rail proposal to Peabody and Danvers: http://www.bostonmpo.org/bostonmpo/pmt-old/PMT-4.pdf (p.13). See also here for diagrams of Peabody station: http://www.mbta.com/about_the_mbta/t_pr ... sp?id=1012. Good bet of happening in the middle-term because the line's already freight-active to Peabody, either of the two routings to Danvers/128 are open (no trail on this portion), and price tag's a relatively cheap $56 mil. The T's own documents on the North Shore improvements study cite +3000 CR riders vs. +1700 on the Boston MPO rating. Not sure where MPO was getting its figure, but that seems awfully low for commuter density near the 95/128/1 splits. But this is why packing the Eastern Route end-to-end with DMU's isn't going to work. Salem is going to have to support 3 branches of CR schedules in 10-12 years, and headways can't be packed much tighter with the tunnel. Even a second tunnel is not really going to get you all the way to rapid-transit levels because of schedule margin for error.

Peabody/Danvers will certainly help; it'll make a substantial difference well before a second tunnel's in the mix. So will double-tracking the Newburyport line to eliminate the cascading schedule kinks and eliminating the really troublesome grade crossings in Everett. P/D most definitely rates among the type of low-hanging revenue fruit expansions (like Lowell-South Nashua or Worcester via Grand Junction) that are relatively short and inexpensive, max out active underutilized freight track the T already owns, and punch well above their weight on revenue return by increasing frequency on the mains. It's the kind of incremental stuff they should be building instead of FR/NB.

But the North Shore commuter density is so far above and beyond what the Eastern Route could ever serve that it's not enough. This really is a Braintree Line North...they have to be thinking short-haul rapid transit on the same trunk as long-haul CR if they ever want to make up ground on the ridership demand curve. Danvers is your Greenbush, Newburyport is your Middleboro, Rockport is your Plymouth; intermediate stations get skipped mix-and-match on the schedules like Braintree, Quincy Center, and JFK do. And then everybody boarding Salem-in parks and gets on the subway. The branches alone are growing fast enough that CR ridership north of Salem will swoop in to fill the vacuum of any displacement from 35,000 new Blue Line riders. Faster trip to Boston expressing over the inner half of the Eastern Route will ensure that. It can't be understated how many car drivers we're talking here who would be using transit where they currently use none.

'Course it's pointless to even talk about Salem when there's such pathological denial at the state level over Lynn first.

Charliemta wrote:I would route the Blue Line to avoid Point Of Pines. The blue markers represent station locations.

That's probably the very best place for a station between Wonderland and Lynn (on a commercial plot and behind the high-rises in the Kelly's Roast Beef neighborhood) and a good place for crossing over (avoids putting noise through the Oak Island overpass)

Here's why I think you're not going to get a station between Wonderland and Lynn at all:

A) Hard to thread a long, straight & level 6-car platform (heck, if they're really building out to Salem, they'll want an option for 8-car lengths) unless its aerial
B) Difficult access for kiss-and-ride or even a normal station "streetscape" (its so "intimate" / narrow anywhere along there)
B) Cost. Stations run $60m.
C) Ridership. Even if the abutters rushed to sell their houses to high-rise developers, I don't think you'd get enough people living nearby to give the station decent ridership.

You might get the owners along the commercial strip to go for an aerial station that landed on the west side of 1A exactly in that Rent-A-Tool area you chose, but that'd be pretty close to Wonderland.