• The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

  • Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.
Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

Moderator: Liquidcamphor

  • 806 posts
  • 1
  • 47
  • 48
  • 49
  • 50
  • 51
  • 54
  by MNCRR9000
 
SRich wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:22 am
PeteJP wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:21 pm Hello I am just joining this group.

A few questions:
Are there any tracks plans available for this project? I am updating my train dispatcher program.

Also will this be dispatched from PSCC or Jamaica?
Logically seen from the PSCC, since harold interlocking is also controlled from it and ESA connect to Harold
I was reading a article about the completion of the Mid Day Storage yard, I’ll have to see if I can find it, it mentioned that the tracks will be controlled from a dispatcher located in Grand Central so sounds like ESA may have its own OCC.
  by jamestrains1
 
It appears as though the LIRR's terminal at Grand Central will NOT operate 24/7. It will shut down each night similar to how the terminal for Metro-North at Grand Central currently operates.
MTA LIRR East Side Access
Technical Memorandum Assessing Design Changes:
LIRR Concourse and Street Entrances

http://web.mta.info/capital/esa_docs/ESA%20TM4.pdf
30 Jul 2009
see pdf pg. 35
Image

"IV. GCT OPERATING POLICY
MTA has decided that LIRR operations in GCT will be consistent with MNR’s
operations, which currently do not provide 24 hour service, seven days per week. This
decision has no impact on the conclusions or mitigation measures presented in the FEIS,
since the FEIS focuses on worst-case analyses during peak hours and makes no mention
of a nighttime operating policy. This decision will not adversely affect LIRR service;
Penn Station will continue to provide nighttime service. "
  by SRich
 
MNCRR9000 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:41 am
SRich wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:22 am
PeteJP wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:21 pm Hello I am just joining this group.

A few questions:
Are there any tracks plans available for this project? I am updating my train dispatcher program.

Also will this be dispatched from PSCC or Jamaica?
Logically seen from the PSCC, since harold interlocking is also controlled from it and ESA connect to Harold
I was reading a article about the completion of the Mid Day Storage yard, I’ll have to see if I can find it, it mentioned that the tracks will be controlled from a dispatcher located in Grand Central so sounds like ESA may have its own OCC.
Quite apart, because mid day storage yard is connected to a amtrak loop that is controlled by PSCC.
  by EuroStar
 
The Grand Central portion of ESA is not that complex or large to clearly require its own OCC. Given the extra costs of a new OCC, I would certainly expect all dispatching functions for ESA to be added to new personnel at the existing locations, but I do not have first hand knowledge of what is planned.
  by Backshophoss
 
The LIRR GCT "Bunker Level" will be in PSCC controlled. Might have it's own desk at PSCC.





'


'
  by photobug56
 
Some pieces of history and issues re ESA.

Back in 1996, as a member of the apparently short lived ESA Citizens Task Force, I was part of the tour of the 'pit' East of the East River where you could climb down to the 2 level tunnel (63rd St subway line, I think below), or the empty and somewhat wet LIRR tunnel. You could hear subway trains in the other level. At the time, I had questions for the LIRR staff escorting us.

1. What about double decker trains? No, the tube was a few inches too low vertically to fit what LIRR had chosen to buy. No comment on why they didn't try a slightly lower car than the C3's they did buy or the C1's they already had.
2. How will passengers from diesel country reach GCT? There will be a transfer station at Sunnyside. My impression from what I was told was that it would be a fairly quick across the platform transfer. Of course, we know that LIRR dropped this Sunnyside transfer station from their plans and has never explained how we in diesel country would get to GCT. My assumption today is that LIRR will make it difficult and time consuming, so much so that we might not save any commuting time (but my save subway fare).
3. When will it open? My IMPRESSION was about 10 years after that tour, like about 2006. Of course, now, MAYBE, it may open by Dec 31, 2022.

Oddly, while that tour went well, that was the last time I ever heard from or about the citizens task force. Note that it can be found via Google. BTW, I still have a cute little flashlight they gave all of us that they put together just for the tour. Kind of how I know this wasn't some figment of my imagination.

Another thing. I've heard so many horror stories from this project. One of my favorites; a contractor told me that one of the reasons it's gone so slowly is that safety inspectors, some being H1B's, realized that the more fake safety problems they found, giving an excuse to stop work, the longer they would be employed. He also told me what would happen if a mistake would be found. Day 1, they start work on a change order. Work keeps going on. Several months later, the change order would be approved, then they would rip out all of the affected work and then redo it. He also noted that they were constantly finding huge mistakes in materials including rails.

I don't remember where I heard or was told that the GCT escalators were being done by the same firm that had made a mess of the escalators in the 2nd Ave. Stubway. I can't tell you how reassured I was to hear that, and to hear that some of the first escalators installed had long since broken down.
  by mkm4
 
photobug56 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:33 pm 2. How will passengers from diesel country reach GCT? There will be a transfer station at Sunnyside. My impression from what I was told was that it would be a fairly quick across the platform transfer. Of course, we know that LIRR dropped this Sunnyside transfer station from their plans and has never explained how we in diesel country would get to GCT. My assumption today is that LIRR will make it difficult and time consuming, so much so that we might not save any commuting time (but my save subway fare).
Change at Jamaica.

Sunnyside was never going to be a transfer station. It was going to be placed after the switch for the tracks to GCT.
It was supposed to replace Hunters Point.

You can see the approximate placement here: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/licity/licity2.htm
  by photobug56
 
I'm referring to what LIRR was thinking (to the degree they are capable of thinking) back in 1996. Lots different than now.

As to transferring at Jamaica, to actually save time and be viable, it needs to be an across the platform transfer from a train from or to diesel country to/from the GCT ESA connection. So inbound, maybe track 1 for the diesel as might be today, with the GCT train on track 2, or vice versa. And eastbound, 7&8. If you have to do the up and over idiocy, that can easily add 5 to 10 minutes each way, eliminating much of the time savings, and hard to do for someone in less than great physical condition. What's most likely to happen is that, say, an inbound passenger steps off a Penn train, does up and over - having to walk from wherever he is on the platform to the escalator or elevator on overcrowded platforms, wait to get on, wait to get up, coming down either elevator with a wait, or as I recall, walking down. So an east side destination passenger might end up saving no time at all going to GCT, though if the GCT area is the final destination, they save a subway fare.

As to replacing HPA, what makes much more sense is to properly rebuild HPA subway and LIRR station. Ironically, if one busted through the subway station wall from the mezzanine, you could build a ramp over the train tracks then down to a new LIRR rebuilt platform (one that doesn't bounce as you walk on it). Add elevators inside the subway station from platforms to mezzanine, and one from mezzanine to the street. The ramp would be mostly enclosed to avoid the current weather problems.



But hey, NYCTA would still say know due to the NIH syndrome.
  by Head-end View
 
As I envision the transfer at Jamaica, it will work just like it does now with the westbound train on Track-2 serving as a bridge between the trains on Tracks-1 & 3. Assume a diesel train on T-1, a GCT train on T-2 and a Penn Sta. train on T-3.

And the reverse eastbound on Tracks-6-7-8.

Only the Brooklyn riders will get screwed by having to go up and over to the new Platform-F and Tracks-11-12. A real slap in the face to the Brooklyn riders by the LIRR. :(
  by photobug56
 
Except for those commuters who can board a Brooklyn bound train at their home station, and vice versa in the evening.

My problem in accepting what you think will happen - I keep asking LIRR and they don't ever answer. What you are saying makes sense. But LIRR seldom if ever makes sense in how they do things. After all, you are talking about a railroad that has schedules based on ones from the 1890's, where some planners still think that there are only farms east of Huntington and Babylon (as one former LIRR president told me personally several years ago. Can't remember his name, but he started out as a ticket agent).
  by Head-end View
 
I believe the Brooklyn service is being converted to a shuttle operation running only between Jamaica and Atlantic Terminal. Might not be any more thru trains to and from Brooklyn. I'm guessing that what are now Brooklyn trains may become Penn Sta. trains and the current Penn Sta. trains will become GCT trains, or something like that. Maybe a mix.

You're right that service to the east end of Long Island is not particularly good on the LIRR and that is regrettable. But I sure as heck wouldn't want to live in Suffolk and commute daily to NYC even with better service. It was bad enough doing it from central Nassau for 4 years in the 1970's.

Many will not believe this but LIRR is a much better and safer railroad than many people think it is. I think they do a pretty fair job considering the size and complexity of the system. If you don't believe that, try riding the commuter rail lines in Boston or Philadelphia. MTA-LIRR is actually a class act by comparison.
  by photobug56
 
Maybe better then in the 1970's. But;

1. In the 1990's they bought a diesel / dd fleet designed to not fit into the East River tunnel.
2. They should have rebuilt at least the M3's years ago.
3. Every so many decades, they buy a new fleet and try to abandon the previous. They never rebuild, and poorly maintain their fleets. For instance, I was on a train years ago when the rusted out engineer's seat in the leading GP38-2 broke off its pedestal. Also, with the C1's, they did not have a replacement schedule for the emergency batteries in the cars. As the batteries died, when the Bitanic arrived daily at Penn, passengers daily had to use the emergency door releases to open the doors, eventually braking them. One day I reached out to someone high up in LIRR and suggested they change those batteries finally. OOPS! Within a month, the worst of the door problems had gone away. On the C1's, they didn't take care of the a/c units, including cleaning out the drains. In the rain, the overflow would pour into the vestibules and flood them, and sometimes the lower deck as well. The old rustbucket fleet actually had holes in the floor where you could see the tracks below. Plus the cars that had their own generators slung below got so little maintenance that half the cars would have no power due to no fuel in the tanks. I could go on and on, of course.
4. When they ordered the DM's and DE's and the C3's, they knew, and privately acknowledged at the time that they had not bought enough equipment.
5 . I believe it was last summer that they waited too late to get the MARC cars, so there were extreme car shortages every Thursday, Friday in diesel country. The Cannonball trips were great for the young drunks, but were hell on passengers in diesel country.
6. They are still using schedules based on ones from the 1890's. I've seen piles of half empty trains at Penn on some lines while other lines are badly overcrowded.
7. The M7 trains were full of design mistakes, some of which made for a lot less interior space width wise.
8., On the M9's (do we still have only 2 trains worth in service?), they put the AC outlets in a really bad spot. They probably should have been either on seatbacks (flush) or somewhere else on the seats.
9. On the C3's, they removed trackside equipment that allowed station announcements. They were supposed to put in modern equipment in the locos to bring them back to life - a year or two ago.

Just a few examples of one of the top 5 worse commuter railroads in the US. THese days I have to concede that thanks to Chris Christie and others, NJT is worse. Not sure about MN.

Also, these days, piles of people have to commute between Long Island and north of NYC. Makes traffic horrible. To use mass transit, even if you may SOMEDAY connect at GCT, that would make, just east of Huntington, a 5 hour round trip, versus 6 plus hours today. MTA knows, but ignores the need to connect LIRR to MN in the Bronx. Would it be cheap? Not do do all lines, but badly needed. Xfer at Jamaica to a shuttle that crosses the Bronx connecting to New Haven (easy), Harlem and Hudson lines. These days lots of people are losing their jobs when greedy bosses move jobs out of NYC to north of NYC.
  by Jeff Smith
 
Not sure if this was posted before, but it's pretty interesting if a couple of months old: CityandStateNY.com
In 1968, in the middle of Nelson Rockefeller’s third term as governor of New York, the first chairman of the new Metropolitan Transportation Authority, William Ronan, approached Rockefeller with an idea about building access to the East Side of Manhattan for the Long Island Rail Road. Now, more than 50 years later, that massive project is finally nearing the finish line.
...
Exasperation on the part of officials like Cuomo reflect the fact that East Side Access has been five decades in the making. But planning for the modern incarnation of the project – which involves building miles of train tunnels beneath the East River to connect the LIRR to Grand Central Terminal in Manhattan – did not begin in earnest until the mid-1990s. Since that official start, the project has been plagued by delays and budget overruns. The 2009 deadline that officials originally set for the project – then estimated to cost $4.3 billion – has been adjusted more than a half-dozen times and has since ballooned into a $11.2 billion behemoth, now slated to be completed by the end of 2022.

With an annual ridership of nearly 90 million, the LIRR has struggled to keep up with increasing demand, at the same time dealing with congestion at Penn Station that keeps LIRR riders waiting for an available platform. Those riders may finally get relief from East Side Access this time around, thanks to recent project management changes at the MTA and insistence by Cuomo and MTA leadership that the project must be a priority. “We’re on schedule, on budget for that December 2022 service start time,” said John McCarthy, a special adviser for agency operations and initiatives at the MTA.
...
  by photobug56
 
That goes under the heading "Believe It Or Not! There's a song - In the year, 2525, if man is still alive... that seem somewhat more accurate. Like the 2nd Ave Stubway, even if it's done by the latest ETA, I'm guessing it will take years to fix all the mistakes still remaining, get escalators working at least half the time, plug water leaks, etc. I've become very skeptical. Ironically, the 3rd track project is moving forward well, since it was professionally managed under Design Build, with one firm taking overall responsibility. That's in contrast to ESA, where from everything I've heard, no one takes responsibility, let alone overall for the whole project.

If the pyramids in Egypt had been built this way, they'd probably still be being built today!
  by MNCRR9000
 
Signaling hardware installation in the tunnels being constructed for East Side Access has now begun – the first signal head and signal case mock-up is being installed in the 63rd Street tunnel that will connect LIRR trains traveling to and from Manhattan with Queens. The signal head is fully installed, and the wiring is being completed on the signal case for the communication of information between LIRR trains, the Train Operation Center (TOC) and the main LIRR operating center in Jamaica: the TOC, where all train operations are under 24-7 supervision, will be in the new LIRR terminal in Grand Central Station.
http://www.amodernli.com/signaling-prog ... -hardware/
  • 1
  • 47
  • 48
  • 49
  • 50
  • 51
  • 54