Hampton Roads/Norfolk/Newport News NE Regional Service

[H Street Landlord]

Excellent comments Woody and affaggit.

Pretty amazing to see the CVS station busy during a recent trip. Most of the passengers seemed to be of a relatively high SES as well. Not saying that is a good or bad thing, but interesting. As others have stated, these successes create a virtuous cycle of promoting more train service. I imagine there is a (smaller) positive knock off on general public transit as well. Exciting times!

[jstolberg]

The January Monthly Performance Report came out early and all Virginia services were in the black. http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/234/741/Amt ... y-2013.pdf

The Norfolk train once again carried 10,000 passengers for the month, but this time there was no decrease in the Newport News line. For the first 4 months of the fiscal year, the Lynchburg route is running a $1.4 million profit, Newport News has generated a $1.3 million profit and Norfolk is in the green by $200,000.

[Tadman]

Thirdrail7's comments on the last page: "PTB is a waste of brakeshoes" reminds me of a question I have. What does it cost to stop and start a train? I first thought of this question while riding an EMU but it applies everywhere, and someone at Amtrak has got to have that number.

So, in comparison to crusing through at track speed, what does it cost in terms of brake shoe wear, lost time, and fuel used to accelerate away? Gotta be something like $50 on average .

[Jersey_Mike]

One would think with all that new funding they would build the connection and get the Cardinal off the damn Washington Sub. They could save 30 minutes off the trip time and abandon all the expensive signaling as well.

[amm in ny]

The Staples Mill station location makes it _really_ difficult for Richmond to be a rail destination.

For one thing, there is no public transportation at the Staples Mill Road station. You pretty much have to have someone pick you up and drop you off, or take a cab and hope they don't take the scenic route to your hotel (had one try that with me once.)

Main Street Station is within a few blocks of most of the bus lines in the city. It's also within a few blocks of the State Capitol, and many state offices are in the area.

The area used to be pretty uninviting (back when I lived in Richmond), but it's become a pretty trendy area, at least for restaurants, shops etc.

[jstolberg]

An update on the parking station at Staples Mills.
http://wtvr.com/2013/03/14/parking-woes ... travelers/

A stoplight will be installed in the next 60 days to get traffic in and out of the Amtrak station

from the video.

[gokeefe]

An update on the parking station at Staples Mills.
http://wtvr.com/2013/03/14/parking-woes ... travelers/

A stoplight will be installed in the next 60 days to get traffic in and out of the Amtrak station

from the video.

That is the kind of problem that I don't think anyone in their wildest dreams ever imagined Amtrak having when it was setup in 1971. Let alone anywhere south of Washington, D.C.

[Patrick Boylan]

http://wtvr.com/2013/03/14/parking-woes ... travelers/

the station– the highest used south of Washington D.C.’s Union station

Thank you for the opportunity to nitpick the article
I'm sure they must mean highest used in the east south of DC's Union Station. I hope Los Angeles Union Station would have more Amtrak trains and passengers than Richmond. Can anyone think of any others?

Amtrak said that the key is to arrive early, but that might not be the only solution with 16 trains leaving out every day.

That's only a solution for the folks who arrive early. You get a space that someone else might have gotten. That other automobile still needs a home, and if it consistently doesn't find one at the station then it might eventually stop delivering and picking up train passengers.
And it's not a solution at all if ever yone does it. That would only result in the early trains getting filled, and later ones losing passengers. Folks travel patterns might not let them come early. If your appointment up north is for 5pm it might not make sense for you to take a 9am train.

At least one prior post has said there's no local public transit at Staples Mill. That makes me think a solution should be to provide local public transit.

[Station Aficionado]

It would be a big help if there were a dedicated shuttle running from Staples Mill to Main St. for all the trains that don't stop at Main St. (all but 2 in each direction). Neither Amtrak nor the local authorities have ever been very interested in running one, however.

The Richmond transit system used to run a route that stopped at Staples Mill (never took it myself), but IIRC that route was discontinued. I doubt it was a very efficient way to get downtown.

[amm in ny]

Amtrak said that the key is to arrive early, but that might not be the only solution with 16 trains leaving out every day.

That's only a solution for the folks who arrive early. You get a space that someone else might have gotten. That other automobile still needs a home, and if it consistently doesn't find one at the station then it might eventually stop delivering and picking up train passengers.

Too bad they moved out of Broad Street Station. There was at least as much space for parking as at Staples Mills, it's only a few blocks from the RMA (expressway), and lots of bus lines go right past it.

The current location is terrible. It's only convenient for the people in the far West End and maybe Northside. It doesn't have anywhere near the capacity it needs. There are no services there. The only advantage it ever had was that it was cheap.

[amm in ny]

It would be a big help if there were a dedicated shuttle running from Staples Mill to Main St. for all the trains that don't stop at Main St. (all but 2 in each direction). Neither Amtrak nor the local authorities have ever been very interested in running one, however.

Doesn't surprise me. My recollection from growing up there was for Richmonders, Richmond was the center of the universe, and the universe stopped about 10-20 miles beyond the city limits. If you don't live there, and don't have family there, why should they care how you get where you're going?

And Amtrak seems to consider its business limited to running trains. Whether their customers actually get where they're going is somebody else's problem.

[ThirdRail7]

i believe brake shoe wear is a considerable cost as well,
maybe close to the fuel cost.

Wow. Is there any other way to slow a stopping train?

When airplanes touch down, they usually raise and lower
the flaps, to present a little wall along the wings. That
way the air itself is forced against the flaps and helps to
slow the plane. When fighters land on aircraft carriers,
parachutes pop out and again, the air creates a drag,
which helps to slow the plane.

Not quite. Aircraft use thrust reversers a great deal to help slow them down. They also use brakes on the wheels.

On an aircraft carrier they use a hook to catch a cable. But, ironically enough, they go to full thrust when they land, because if they miss the cable, they need enough engine thrust to take off again. They do not use parachutes.

Wonder if anyone has ever looked into the stopping
techniques of airplanes. Or is it simply a giant case of
"not invented here"? But why waste money by making
brake shoes alone do ALL the work of slowing a train?

(Sorry this comment goes a bit off topic.)

Note that trains can also use dynamic braking (basically turn the electric motors into generators and the "drag" they create gets turned into heat, or in the case of some engines, fed back into the catenary)

But one main reason for using brakes is, "they work".

I would be surprised if the cost is as high as Mr. Benton thinks, but I'm far from an expert in the area.

Brakes shoes are a MAJOR, MAJOR expense for trains. This is why rules have been implemented to use dynamic and blended braking instead of power braking(which is also a fuel burner) and train only braking. When using blended brake, the engine is doing the vast majority of the braking. I believe the numbers are 75-80 percent with the electrics and 65-70 percent with the diesels, but that could be a little off.

In the case of the catenary being fed, that is regenerative braking. Only the A/C electrics are capable of this and if my memory is correct, the Remans and HHP-8s only do it in blended brake, not dynamic brake. The Acela power cars and the forthcoming electrics all for full time regenerative braking. This assumes the substations can handle and store the electricity (which isn't the case as of yet.)

[gokeefe]

This assumes the substations can handle and store the electricity (which isn't the case as of yet.)

Wouldn't they just either balance the load from another train drawing in the same section or if there's excess power backfeed it onto the grid?

[ThirdRail7]

This assumes the substations can handle and store the electricity (which isn't the case as of yet.)

Wouldn't they just either balance the load from another train drawing in the same section or if there's excess power backfeed it onto the grid?

This assumes that there is another train in the section that is drawing power at the same time the other train is regenerative braking. If not and the particular substation can't store the return, there is nothing to backfeed.

[gokeefe]

This assumes the substations can handle and store the electricity (which isn't the case as of yet.)

Wouldn't they just either balance the load from another train drawing in the same section or if there's excess power backfeed it onto the grid?

This assumes that there is another train in the section that is drawing power at the same time the other train is regenerative braking. If not and the particular substation can't store the return, there is nothing to backfeed.

Here is my point of view:.... As a firefighter we go to many calls with downed wires. Of concern to us and the linemen are backfeeds from generators on personal property that do not have automatically cutoff the household mains, thus preventing backfeeding onto the transmission wires and so on.

Now obviously electricity runs through transformers to houses and so on. But transformers can be a two way street. When the current is reversed (due to power loss etc.) then the household "step down" transformers (usually 440V to 220V) now act as a "step up" transformer turning 220V into 440V and energizing the line in reverse.

My impression of Amtrak's setup is that much the same could potentially happen. I would certainly be interested in understanding why Amtrak's setup precludes such a thing from happenning. I'm assuming in some cases that the 25Hz issue might be part of it, but that's not necessarily the case in all situations. Thanks for the willingness to engage in a technical discussion.