Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

[gokeefe]

So here is what I think *may* have happened ... There was a proposal (See PDF Slide 14/35) for an overhaul of the MARC AEM-7s made in 2012. If those funds were actually included in the operation and maintenance contract recently awarded to Bombardier it seems possible that they may have been reprogrammed to the HHP-8 fleet instead. This would explain the apparent lack of bid documents and a notice of award.

If this overhaul really is happening I would continue to maintain that it has implications for Amtrak's HHP-8s at a minimum and potentially the Acela fleet as well.

[ApproachMedium]

The HHP-8s are maintained by bombardier at MARC yes, but ALSTOM made the ONYX propulsion system that runs their traction systems and would require their support to do the reprogramming to operate the IGBT power electronics vs the old GTO modules.

Everything on amtrak had ACSES II data radio. The second generation data radio is what is in everything now and that the HHPs DO NOT have. The HHPs also do not have the updated intelligent ADUs.

[gokeefe]

MARC HHP-8 rebuild program CONFIRMED ...

[gokeefe]

Based on available information and photos it appears that the rebuild program is at least 66% complete ... MARC 4910, 4912, 4913 and 4915 all have been photographed in revenue service with a new top coat of paint. Unlike the AEM-7 rebuilds there do not appear to be any obvious distinguishing features which set them apart from their "as built" configuration.

[gokeefe]

Additional information from September 2017.

[mtuandrew]

MARC HHP-8 thread here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=153924" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don’t know about the Amtrak mods, but I for one would love if we could discuss the MARC rebuild program in the DC-MD-VA rail forum.

[gokeefe]

Agreed. The question at hand here is whether or not Amtrak might be considering a similar program.

[Backshophoss]

This "upgrade" needs to "sold" to Amtrak at a Fair cost $$$ wise,or at NO cost as a gesture of good faith by BBD to return to good graces as
a supplier of Locos and cars for Amtrak.
The ACSES Gear and Cab Signals will need an upgrade to the current generation of that gear,as stated by other members.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Adding to Mr. Backshop's immediate, IF any Amtrak HHP-8's are returned to service, the terms will be as "opaque" as were those with the "metamorphosis" of SDP-40F's into F-40PHR's.

[amtrakhogger]

I don't think Amtrak would be interested returning any HHP-8's to service even if BBD or Alstom upgraded the motor drives for free. IIRC, the HHP-8's were the first units to be withdrawn from service when the ACS-64's showed up.
Also, if Amtrak were to pony up any money for upgrades, then why not put that $$ towards two replacement ACS-64's?

[mtuandrew]

This "upgrade" needs to "sold" to Amtrak at a Fair cost $$$ wise,or at NO cost as a gesture of good faith by BBD to return to good graces as
a supplier of Locos and cars for Amtrak.
The ACSES Gear and Cab Signals will need an upgrade to the current generation of that gear,as stated by other members.

I think no cost would be appropriate, seeing as Amtrak still doesn’t own them. For that matter, BBD should also offer to cancel the current lease with Amtrak and either renegotiate (if AMTK wants the extra power) or take the Hippo show elsewhere if they don’t need it.

[ApproachMedium]

As long as amtrak possess the units, they are responsible for the costs for maintenance and upgrades.

[dowlingm]

The assumption is that the only game in town once Amtrak completes the current lease is for BBD to reacquire them, refurb and attempt to send them back to Amtrak (at ludicrously favourable terms demanded by posters above), with maybe a few going MARCs way if they are happy with the refurbs and bump up the Penn Line electric service. Let's assume BBD don't sell MBTA on going electric, SEPTA is all good for power for the foreseeable, and MNRR don't bite at a MLVs+8s deal (especially given BBD's other issues in NY recently). What about large Bombardier customer NJT - could some potentially land there if they had an assurance that between their fleet and MARCs the pool of cars would be enough to generate a ready supply of parts?

[STrRedWolf]

The assumption is that the only game in town once Amtrak completes the current lease is for BBD to reacquire them, refurb and attempt to send them back to Amtrak (at ludicrously favourable terms demanded by posters above), with maybe a few going MARCs way if they are happy with the refurbs and bump up the Penn Line electric service. Let's assume BBD don't sell MBTA on going electric, SEPTA is all good for power for the foreseeable, and MNRR don't bite at a MLVs+8s deal (especially given BBD's other issues in NY recently). What about large Bombardier customer NJT - could some potentially land there if they had an assurance that between their fleet and MARCs the pool of cars would be enough to generate a ready supply of parts?

BBD really has to be lucky with MARC on the HHP-8's, and so far so good. Since BBD also has that maintenance and operations contract w/MARC, it's a sure bet they're getting real-world data back on the MARC HHP-8's and the Bilevel coaches (the MARC IV's/NJTransit Multilevel IIs), and it's going back into improving the HHP-8's.

If...

• MARC stays neutral on Penn Line service (likely, since it's at capacity until more track is added)
• BBD fails on getting MBTA to go electric (likely, everyone's strapped for cash)
• SEPTA doesn't want 'em. (likely, they ordered 15 ACS-64's to replace their fleet of 7 AEM-7's and 1 ALP-44, and they also use EMUs)
• Metro North doesn't buy the Multi-levels/HHP-8s.

...would BBD be able to foist these onto NJ Transit? Maybe not -- NJT's got newer engines from BBD, a few ALP series engines, and a lot of diesel it still runs for at least five lines (possibly seven).

Without another option, I think these HHP-8's are destined for parts and scrap.

[gokeefe]

The real issue for the MBTA is if they need the power bad enough. I think given the current climate in MA the answer will be "No". If Baker loses in November I suspect that will change. They have been pressuring the Boston transit budgets and shifting resources west. Politics or not I suspect the T would give the HHP-8's a serious look if they are confident of improved support. I say this only because it is my general impression that the T is strapped for power.

MARC does not necessarily have to stay neutral on Penn Line service. My understanding is that right now they have a service plan that requires diesel power to support that line. This would appear to imply that MARC has room to grow their electric fleet without adding trains. This might depend on whether or not they can retire some older and less fuel efficient or green diesel engines from other service. Not sure how much they have left on their roster that they would want to dump.

I agree that SEPTA is out. I don't follow them very closely but they appear to have met all possible needs for power for some time to come.

PennDOT is one agency that we haven't considered. I could see these engines running on the Keystone Service. The advantage to PennDOT is the way the PRIIA formula would reward them for owning their power. Amtrak would still be able to charge a high price for electricity but they would no longer be providing the engines. They got hit pretty hard with the new formulas and I think their new budget would likely support acquisition and operation.

Metro-North might be "out" but I think CTDOT could be "in" for Shore Line East service especially if they are still contemplating extension to Mystic or Westerly, RI.