Amtrak Empire Builder 2nd Daily Frequency Chicago - St Paul

[eolesen]

Yes. A few years ago MSP got a commuter train, a smaller operation.

Yes, but with no overlap on the Builder. Northstar commuter runs northwest to Big Lake, and was supposed to go all the way to St. Cloud but didn't get funding to complete the last 30 miles.

[mtuandrew]

Yes, but with no overlap on the Builder. Northstar commuter runs northwest to Big Lake, and was supposed to go all the way to St. Cloud but didn't get funding to complete the last 30 miles.

It has to be one of the few instances in the world where a commuter line and an intercity line share almost every foot of track, yet share no stations whatsoever.

[Jeff Smith]

Yes, but with no overlap on the Builder. Northstar commuter runs northwest to Big Lake, and was supposed to go all the way to St. Cloud but didn't get funding to complete the last 30 miles.

It has to be one of the few instances in the world where a commuter line and an intercity line share almost every foot of track, yet share no stations whatsoever.

That's bizarre.

[gokeefe]

I'm guessing those cost figures are all for capital improvements.

Seems a little heavy to me ... What's the track configuration between Milwaukee and Minneapolis-St. Paul? I thought it was all main line double track but apparently not ????

[ryanch]

It's definitely not all main line double track. There was some discussion above, after my suggestion that extending a Chgo-Milwaukee run to Portage/Wisconsin Dells might make sense in lieu of a full extension given possibility of turning existing equipment. (Or was that in the Hiawatha thread. Hard to know how to classify such a suggestion.)

Between Milwaukee and Portage, I had looked at it, and there's significant single-track with scattered areas where the former second main is now siding. But those stretches may serve industry rather than simply serving as passing zones.

[mtuandrew]

That's bizarre.

I suppose you could connect eastbound from an early Northstar commuter train to the Empire Builder if they shared any stations; it’s impossible either way to connect from the westbound Builder. It’ll be nice when the second CHI-MSP hopefully terminates at Minneapolis Target Field.

[mtuandrew]

Minneapolis-St. Paul-Red Wing and Minneapolis-St. Cloud were always supposed to be Metro Transit trains operated by BNSF. Still unsure about Minneapolis-Duluth.

I have thoughts about that regional operator idea though; I’ll put them to words later.

[mtuandrew]

Next you’ll tell us that South Shore should terminate in Hammond because it takes too long at Kensington Interlocking

—————

Here are the top ten Minnesota metropolitan statistical areas by population, including bordering MSAs (and CSAs and μSAs where applicable):

1) Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington: 3,629,190 (mainly in Minnesota)
2) Duluth-Superior: 278,799 (mainly MN)
3) Fargo-Moorhead CSA: 261,710 (mainly ND)
4) Rochester: 219,872
5) St. Cloud: 199,801
6) La Crosse: 136,808 (mainly WI)
7) Mankato-New Ulm-North Mankato CSA: 126,758
8) Grand Forks: 102,299 (mainly ND)
9) Brainerd μSA: 94,408
10) Faribault-Northfield μSA: 66,523

The numbers are a little misleading. A MSP-LSE train would also serve the Red Wing (46,403) and Winona (50,825) μSAs; a train straight south from the Cities would hit Northfield and Faribault but also hit Owatonna (36,803) and Austin (40,011) or Albert Lea (30,444) μSAs.

What that means in terms of trains is that the existing Empire Builder axis already reaches the highest potential population. It may not serve the communities well - why there’s no Elk River and Hastings stations is beyond me - but it hits a daisy chain of MSAs and μSAs from border to border that add over three-quarters of a million people to the Builder’s catchment beyond that of the Twin Cities.

Next priority would be Duluth and Rochester, neither of which have significant MSAs or μSAs between them and the Twin Cities. Call it about 280,000 and 220,000 people as the distant anchors respectively, both with underused airports which could help relieve KMSP. Rochester will be difficult, never having had a direct rail route to the Cities - that’s why there’s been so many fits and starts in the effort to get service.

After that, pickings start getting slim. Northfield-Faribault-Austin nets about 140,000 in their μSAs, while a train to Mankato gets about 125,000 if you assume New Ulm will also contribute. Brainerd isn’t on a direct rail path to the Twin Cities anymore - the former NP route is trail-banked - but would be part of a service reaching about 300,000 people (via St. Cloud.)

So, my priorities would be:

A) Two to four daily trains LSE-MSP-STC-FAR and beyond
-two CHI-MKE-MSP regionals, one CHI-MSP-GFK-Winnipeg regional, plus the Empire Builder and possibly a MSP-STC-FAR-Bismarck service
-reliable Thruway connections to Brainerd

B) Duluth service
-at least two round-trips daily, four would be better
-connecting bus or heritage railroad service to Two Harbors and to the Iron Range

C) Rochester service via Northfield, Faribault and Owatonna
-indirect, yes, but it serves a lot of people and doesn’t require new right-of-way construction.
-can later be split into a direct Rochester train and a MSP-Des Moines train

D) a pair of daily round-trips to New Ulm via Mankato

Note: I haven’t researched Wisconsin destinations in the same radius, but Hudson (in the MSP MSA), Chippewa Falls, and Eau Claire would provide a couple hundred thousand people in their respective areas. It could be worth a train.

[mtuandrew]

Moderator Note: Moved a passel of MSP-Duluth posts over to General Discussion: Passenger Rail, into the NLX Northern Lights Express HSR MN Duluth-Twin Cities thread. If you have more comments on modern proposals, take them there, and reserve this for CHI-MSP and beyond on the Builder’s current route.

[Bob Roberts]

It appears that the same grant program that is funding New Orleans-Mobile service also has provided $12.5 million for a new frequency between St Paul and Chicago. Are enough new coaches in the Midwest order for two new train sets? Can the train be timed so they can get away with just one (morning Chicago departure, late return trip)?

Plus one more Hartford frequency is funded as well.

https://railroads.dot.gov/newsroom/pres ... estore-and

[gokeefe]

Man alive look at the laundry list of stations between MSP and MKE. WOW!

The proposed service will make 12 station stops in St. Paul, Minnesota; Red Wing, Minnesota; Winona, Minnesota; La Crosse, Wisconsin; Tomah, Wisconsin; Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin; Portage, Wisconsin; Columbus, Wisconsin; Milwaukee, Wisconsin; Sturtevant, Wisconsin; Glenview, Illinois; and Chicago, Illinois.

Hopefully they have a catchy name for the service to help passengers distinguish it from the Hiawatha trains terminating in MKE.

[D.S. Lewith]

Man alive look at the laundry list of stations between MSP and MKE. WOW!

The proposed service will make 12 station stops in St. Paul, Minnesota; Red Wing, Minnesota; Winona, Minnesota; La Crosse, Wisconsin; Tomah, Wisconsin; Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin; Portage, Wisconsin; Columbus, Wisconsin; Milwaukee, Wisconsin; Sturtevant, Wisconsin; Glenview, Illinois; and Chicago, Illinois.

Hopefully they have a catchy name for the service to help passengers distinguish it from the Hiawatha trains terminating in MKE.

Twin Cities Zephyr.

[bdawe]

Will the MSP Train terminate at St. Paul Union Depot? Would seem reasonable to terminate at Target Field to give that extra bit of reach

[Riverduckexpress]

The FRA will give $12.5 million to Wisconsin DOT for a 2nd Chicago-St. Paul round trip as part of its Restoration and Enhancement (R&E) Grants program.

From the FRA's press release:

Wisconsin Department of Transportation
Twin Cities-Milwaukee-Chicago Intercity Passenger Rail Service Project
$12,569,200
Chicago, IL, to Saint Paul, MN
The project adds a second daily roundtrip passenger train between Union Depot in Saint Paul,
Minnesota, and Union Station in Chicago, Illinois. These endpoints are currently served along
Amtrak’s Empire Builder long distance service. This additional train will provide travelers with
more reliable service at convenient times between Saint Paul and Chicago, as poor on-time
performance from the eastbound Empire Builder currently results in unreliable daily passenger
service from Saint Paul. The proposed service will make 12 station stops in St. Paul, Minnesota;
Red Wing, Minnesota; Winona, Minnesota; La Crosse, Wisconsin; Tomah, Wisconsin;
Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin; Portage, Wisconsin; Columbus, Wisconsin; Milwaukee, Wisconsin;
Sturtevant, Wisconsin; Glenview, Illinois; and Chicago, Illinois. The project supplements the
existing Empire Builder and Hiawatha routes with passenger rail service approximately four to
six hours apart from the existing Empire Builder schedule and increases intercity transportation
options and connectivity for rural communities between St. Paul and Milwaukee.

[gokeefe]

Perhaps a return of the Pioneer Limited ... The name is a significant issue here ... Passengers need to be able to differentiate between this train the Empire Builder and the Hiawathas.

Edit: D. S. Lewith suggested Twin Cities Zephyr in the Amtrak Expansion thread. I think it's a great suggestion especially given the location specific name.