Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

[lirr42]

Well, it appears that the first tunneling segment of Gateway will begin this summer. I still think that some of ARC's engineering--such as from the New Jersey Side--can be incorporated into Amtrak's Gateway Project to speed up the process. Does the Gateway Project's cost include a Raritan Flyover?

I think they're just building a big concrete box so that whatever work the Hudson Yards developers do doesn't mess up anything with the tunnel alignments (i.e. a huge steel support right smack in the middle of where track 4 is supposed to go). And no, Gateway does not include a HUNTER flyover.

[Thomas]

Well, any future strategies of growth on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor should include a HUNTER flyover, as well as a fifth track from Newark Penn Station south to Elmora Interlocking. The Gateway Project will bring more trains onto the rails, so infrastructure expansion needs to occur between Newark and Elizabeth as well.

[25Hz]

Well, any future strategies of growth on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor should include a HUNTER flyover, as well as a fifth track from Newark Penn Station south to Elmora Interlocking. The Gateway Project will bring more trains onto the rails, so infrastructure expansion needs to occur between Newark and Elizabeth as well.

Actually, the hudson river is the choke point. From pretty much SEC to baltimore the ROW is 4 tracks, some places more. South of MORRIS there is pretty much clean sailing, as SEPTA has nowhere near the amount of trains per hour as NJT.

[Ken W2KB]

Well, any future strategies of growth on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor should include a HUNTER flyover, as well as a fifth track from Newark Penn Station south to Elmora Interlocking. The Gateway Project will bring more trains onto the rails, so infrastructure expansion needs to occur between Newark and Elizabeth as well.

A flyover at Hunter would be beneficial, and could be accomplished by (1) building a new structure, or (2) using the existing freight bridge, by moving the point at which freights wait to proceed onto the Lehigh Line to 50 or 100 feet east of the bridge. There is enough land in the Amtrak yard and the curve radius would be about the same as the existing Hunter connection. Given that (2) would likely be far less costly, there would be an opportunity to split the savings between NJT and the railroad, thereby incenting both to elect this option.

In my 15 or so years of commuting on the Raritan Valley Line, the only delays I have noted (other than the eastbound crossover waits) arose from trains at platforms in Newark Penn, not from the 4 to 6 tracks between Newark and Elizabeth. Trains stand there waiting for an open platform at Newark Penn Station.

[Thomas]

If Penn Station South were to get built, how long would it take to raze the city block?

[Patrick Boylan]

Actually, the hudson river is the choke point. From pretty much SEC to baltimore the ROW is 4 tracks, some places more. South of MORRIS there is pretty much clean sailing, as SEPTA has nowhere near the amount of trains per hour as NJT.

The Hudson River is A choke point. From SEC to Baltimore there are other choke points where the ROW has less than room for 4 tracks, or at least less than 4 tracks that are worth it for maintaining any decent schedules: Morrisville, Zoo, Arsenal, Claymont, Wilmington, and Baltimore's tunnels. In fact most of those places are only 2 tracks, Wilmington's 3 tracks.

[bleet]

The two Gateway/Penn Station proposals that Thomas posted actually show two slightly different designs. The one dated 4/2013 shows a two level station south of the existing Penn Station with commuter trains on the top level and Amtrak on the bottom level. While there is a passenger passageway to Moynihan its pretty far away. The other one which is actually on the Amtrak website shows the new station below the existing Penn Station with a possible connection to the Empire line.

First, I wonder which is the favored one -- I guess the March one is newer and might reflect current thinking -- but who knows?

Also in both cases the stations -- at least initially -- would be stub-end which I suppose would necessitate a yard/facility in NJ. Will the yard envisioned in ARC make a comeback to host Amtrak trains?

[lirr42]

If Penn Station South were to get built, how long would it take to raze the city block?

Put me in charge and I'll have it all gone within the hour

[Thomas]

Well, it would be nice if the new expanded station complex could be completed within an hour...

But, I assume, at least looking at both websites, that a deep-level station is also being considered. After all, at least looking at the diagram, a tunnel connection does appear to start somewhere near 12th avenue and proceed to A Interlocking (which is where the current tracks and platforms are). However, building a deep-level station would avoid tearing down buildings, etc. This option is probably also being studied since the seven subway extension and East Side Access are opening new stations deep below street level. The East Side Access Mezzanine is being built 140 feet below street level. Although this might seem like it would take a while to get there, modern escalators and wide platforms should mitigate some of the potential boarding issues. Deep-bore tunneling, at least in New York City, avoids utility pipe lines and other infrastructure that could be a hassle to move.

[25Hz]

Well, it would be nice if the new expanded station complex could be completed within an hour...

But, I assume, at least looking at both websites, that a deep-level station is also being considered. After all, at least looking at the diagram, a tunnel connection does appear to start somewhere near 12th avenue and proceed to A Interlocking (which is where the current tracks and platforms are). However, building a deep-level station would avoid tearing down buildings, etc. This option is probably also being studied since the seven subway extension and East Side Access are opening new stations deep below street level. The East Side Access Mezzanine is being built 140 feet below street level. Although this might seem like it would take a while to get there, modern escalators and wide platforms should mitigate some of the potential boarding issues. Deep-bore tunneling, at least in New York City, avoids utility pipe lines and other infrastructure that could be a hassle to move.

Yea, that deep level station you keep bringing up isn't happening and is not at all related to the gateway project as it stands. That link you keep posing is from a conceptual phase, which is now over. There is no ARC, no loop, no connector to ESA, no deep level station. Like, the brainstorming part is over, the final EIS draft & contract definitions are next, then award contracts & then some time in the year 3000... construction.

[morris&essex4ever]

Well, it would be nice if the new expanded station complex could be completed within an hour...

Maybe if we hired the Swiss, Japanese or French to do it, they could build 2 new tunnels, Penn Station South, new Portal Bridges in 1/3 of the time.

[Thomas]

This has got to be one of the top priorities to meet tomorrow's transportation needs.

With the Seven Subway Extension, were any blocks to build out the new infrastructure?

[Thomas]

*were any blocks razed?

[25Hz]

The flushing line is in bedrock and follows down the middle of an avenue. Only trace of it being built is/was some traffic diversions and stuff on street level. http://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index ... 2/7ext.jpg

And, lets be honest if this were any other country the damn thing woulda been built 20 years ago, along with a ton of other stuff all over the country and we'd still ave the original penn station.

[Thomas]

Is "Penn Station South" in bedrock?