Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

1. I do actually agree that 9/11 is one of the main reasons why the United States is in such a mess today...

2. What can Amtrak do to better improve relations with the Christie Administration regarding trans-hudson tunnel capacity?

relations have nothing to do with it, NJ is broke and even schools/police etc have to cut back, so Christie is right there is no money for tunnels.

DutchRailnut wrote:relations have nothing to do with it, NJ is broke and even schools/police etc have to cut back, so Christie is right there is no money for tunnels.

More so, the ARC (or whichever version of what NJT was doing was called) really ended up benefiting NYC more than NY was putting in, I could see his point.

Honestly, when the Gateway Tunnels are built, it'll be a far better solution than the Macy's Basement solution ever was.

Ridgefielder wrote:

25Hz wrote:They aren't going to demolish anything. 370 7th is an established 93 year old 17 story building manhattan landmark. They will simply dig under it. Next door is one of the largest public parking structures in the city. You folks seem to think space in manhattan is 4 bucks a square foot with no regard for historic & functional structures.

370 7th Ave. is not a landmarked building. Nothing in that block is landmarked-- not even the church. The only building adjacent to Penn that has a landmark designation is the Post Office-- which actually surprises me as the Hotel Pennsylvania was designed by McKim, Meade & White.

http://maps.nyc.gov/doitt/nycitymap/

I certainly don't think space in Manhattan is anywhere near $4/foot. It's worth much, much more-- so much more that things like parking lots and gas stations are disappearing from most of the island below 96th Street. There is no way you are going to convince me that in the long run, the highest, best and most profitable use for a piece of land across the street from the busiest railroad station in North America is a 7-story parking structure. Someone is going to approach the owner of the structure at some point "and make him an offer he can't refuse"-- assuming, that is, that the structure isn't already owned by a developer who is just biding his time while he assembles a bigger parcel.

I never said it was a landmarked building, i said it was a manhattan landmark, as in, a building that is important in the architectural fabric of the city visually. As far as the parking garage, it also is going nowhere and the property owner is not biding their time.

I dont think you're understanding how the city works. There is no parking most places unless you live there, you need parking structures, and guess what, maybe i'm going to drive into the city and take the train, or didn't you think about that?

I'm not going to try and make you understand, they don't need to demolish anything, and doing so makes zero sense. It's like suggesting we demolish the pan am building for ESA.

And as for hotel pennsylvania, landmarking was rejected for political purposes. We will see if efforts are successful now that the wrecking ball has been called off.

One other bit that seems to be escaping everyone is that they are not going to tear down 232 west 31st street. Oh they could, but you know, not if they want to still run electric trains under manhattan.

Is it possible to underpin buildings for Penn Station South without razing all of the buildings on Block 780?

How could a Joint Venture speed up the engineering process?

Thomas wrote:Is it possible to underpin buildings for Penn Station South without razing all of the buildings on Block 780?

How could a Joint Venture speed up the engineering process?

The loads will be transferred to bedrock one way or another. It will likely not look any different from current penn station, though the ceilings may be a bit lower.

Joint venture between which parties? This is amtrak's shindig, they all ready have everything covered. The construction will be contracted out in pieces just like any major project.

25Hz wrote:[Joint venture between which parties? This is amtrak's shindig, they all ready have everything covered. The construction will be contracted out in pieces just like any major project.

Amtrak may be the lead but I can't imagine they don't want NJTransit, Metro North, LIRR and Port Authority money which means input. And again this is a very long way from being a plan. I like the 31st street two-level station idea but there will be years of environmental assessments, preferred alternatives and other stuff before any tunnel is drilled or station opened. Some of the ARC tunnel engineering may be of use but I have no idea what the rules are on that sort of thing.

25Hz wrote:I never said it was a landmarked building, i said it was a manhattan landmark, as in, a building that is important in the architectural fabric of the city visually. As far as the parking garage, it also is going nowhere and the property owner is not biding their time.

I dont think you're understanding how the city works. There is no parking most places unless you live there, you need parking structures, and guess what, maybe i'm going to drive into the city and take the train, or didn't you think about that?

As a 15 year resident of New York City I am well aware of how the city works. As someone with decent personal and business contacts in the real estate business I am also aware of how the property market in this city works. And unless you yourself actually own that parking garage I question as to how you know what exactly the owner intends to do with it.

25Hz wrote:I'm not going to try and make you understand, they don't need to demolish anything, and doing so makes zero sense. It's like suggesting we demolish the pan am building for ESA.

I am not saying that anything *needs* to be demolished to expand Penn. What I am suggesting is this: Amtrak would like to expand platform and track space at Penn. They would also presumably like to create their own headhouse separate from the LIRR/NJT commuter chaos. It would be common sense for Amtrak to cover part of the cost of a new station by entering into a partnership with one of the major NY City real estate players. Amtrak gets their station, the developer gets a prime Manhattan office/retail/hotel asset-- and if he does it at all decently (think something like the Word Financial Center atrium, the Time Warner center, or the midblock courtyard space at One Beacon Court) he also gets the heartfelt thanks of the city for giving Manhattan the decent entry it has lacked for close to 50 years.

And there is absolutely no comparison between the Pan Am building, a 59-story, 3.1mm square foot, Class A office building, and a 7-story, 245k square foot parking garage.

bleet wrote:

25Hz wrote:[Joint venture between which parties? This is amtrak's shindig, they all ready have everything covered. The construction will be contracted out in pieces just like any major project.

Amtrak may be the lead but I can't imagine they don't want NJTransit, Metro North, LIRR and Port Authority money which means input. And again this is a very long way from being a plan. I like the 31st street two-level station idea but there will be years of environmental assessments, preferred alternatives and other stuff before any tunnel is drilled or station opened. Some of the ARC tunnel engineering may be of use but I have no idea what the rules are on that sort of thing.

On the other hand, the last thing Amtrak may want is the involvement of any of those agencies or their money.

Sometimes the nice thing about paying your own way is you get to call ALL the shots. (and honestly from what I've seen of the politics involved, the last thing Amtrak wants is more involvement from those agencies.)

Greg Moore wrote:On the other hand, the last thing Amtrak may want is the involvement of any of those agencies or their money.

Sometimes the nice thing about paying your own way is you get to call ALL the shots. (and honestly from what I've seen of the politics involved, the last thing Amtrak wants is more involvement from those agencies.)

That's exactly it, Mr. Moore. Amtrak doesn't want to deal with any backseat drivers, so they'll be more than happy to do without the potential gas money they would have chipped in.

Amtrak's in the drivers seat for this one. It's their Pen. station, let them pay to deliver the capacity it needs. They'll get their return on investment when the project's completed and they can collect more money off NJT when they want to run more trains into the station. Right now the amount of money NJ or the Port Authority would be able to chip in wouldn't be worth the hassle.

1. Over $6 Billion is being spent to rebuild Ground Zero and the World Trade Center Transportation hub. When these projects get completed in the near future, will this free up money to be used for improved trans-hudson capacity?

2. Also, maybe Amtrak could get a chunk of money for improvements from the next major transportation bill, which begins in 2014.

LIRR will not be able to utilize the new platforms or tunnels so that is an utterly moot point.

As far as the parking garage, it spans the block and was built in 1957 and has about 420 parking spaces. It also sits across from MSG so it serves 3 purposes... Train parking, whatever parking and MSG parking.

One aspect i really like is the lengthening of tracks 1-4. right now they can only handle 8 cars plus loco The longer platforms could handle 10 cars and a locomotive. That right there solves one piece of the capacity puzzel: train length.

It seems on closer inspection that all of the buildings on that block are significantly old, most were built before 1940 and the one is the substation for the entire station built by PRR. Ironically the building is brick, but with a face that matched the original station across the street... kinda like an orphan...

Thomas wrote:1. Over $6 Billion is being spent to rebuild Ground Zero and the World Trade Center Transportation hub. When these projects get completed in the near future, will this free up money to be used for improved trans-hudson capacity?

2. Also, maybe Amtrak could get a chunk of money for improvements from the next major transportation bill, which begins in 2014.

1. totally unrelated funding sources.

2. Have you noticed how terrible things are in DC to get anything done? but yea, hopefully they can get funding secured next budget as Afghanistan is winding down and DOD spending will be vastly decreased.