Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Thomas wrote:Is "Penn Station South" in bedrock?

Yep, but it will not have rock above it like the subway extension tunnel does. I don't see any reason for them to demo the buildings on that block as long as they can transmit the loads to bedrock. There is a large parking garage there, and "7 penn plaza" isn't going anywhere.

Thomas wrote:Is "Penn Station South" in bedrock?

Hard not to be in bedrock on Manhattan Island. The glaciers in the last Ice Age scraped the soil off and dumped it in a terminal moraine to the south, what is now Bay Ridge, Staten Island, and the Navesink Highlands of New Jersey. You go down more than maybe 30' and you're blasting-- less, in a lot of places (plenty of rock outcrops in Central Park, for instance)

Ridgefielder wrote:

Adirondacker wrote:

Woody wrote: Two or three very
tired office buildings.

The Port Authority had a very tired old office building, one that took up a whole block, which they sold for a billion a few years ago. Yes a billion with a B. Even tired old office buildings in Manhattan aren't cheap. And neither are parking garages...

I can think of four or five major real estate developers hereabouts who would probably jump at the chance to partner with Amtrak and put up said billions in exchange for the opportunity to build a full-block mixed office and retail development on top of a future Penn Station South given the foot traffic it is likely to generate. ...

The flip side is that Amtrak already owns two or three buildings. Nobody gets the whole block without Amtrak doing the deal. (Can't imagine eminent domain used against a federal corporation LOL). So developers seeking the highest best use, and the biggest full-block use, will have to do a deal, or Amtrak will be the holdout!

So are you saying that there is a way to build Penn Station South without tearing down all of the buildings in Penn Station South--and without disrupting the nearby subway lines?

How would New Jersey contribute to the Gateway Project?

Thomas wrote:So are you saying that there is a way to build Penn Station South without tearing down all of the buildings in Penn Station South--and without disrupting the nearby subway lines?

Yes. The met life building sits atop GCT's platforms and that has 2 levels. West side yard is gonna have towers over it, yard will still be there!

How would New Jersey contribute to the Gateway Project?

The state government isn't involved as far as I know.

Woody wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote:

Adirondacker wrote:

Woody wrote: Two or three very
tired office buildings.

The Port Authority had a very tired old office building, one that took up a whole block, which they sold for a billion a few years ago. Yes a billion with a B. Even tired old office buildings in Manhattan aren't cheap. And neither are parking garages...

I can think of four or five major real estate developers hereabouts who would probably jump at the chance to partner with Amtrak and put up said billions in exchange for the opportunity to build a full-block mixed office and retail development on top of a future Penn Station South given the foot traffic it is likely to generate. ...

The flip side is that Amtrak already owns two or three buildings. Nobody gets the whole block without Amtrak doing the deal. (Can't imagine eminent domain used against a federal corporation LOL). So developers seeking the highest best use, and the biggest full-block use, will have to do a deal, or Amtrak will be the holdout!

They aren't going to demolish anything. 370 7th is an established 93 year old 17 story building manhattan landmark. They will simply dig under it. Next door is one of the largest public parking structures in the city. You folks seem to think space in manhattan is 4 bucks a square foot with no regard for historic & functional structures.

The issue is less about acquiring and demolishing structures than not fighting the building owners in court to be allowed to dig beneath them. The station in the ARC plan wound up under 34th street and was modified to fit there to avoid issues with Macy's or the other property owners. Since Amtrak already owns some of the buildings on the block that might help alleviate some of the problems.

On the other hand, other than the 'box' under the LIRR yard, nothing about Gateway is anywhere close to being decided so the station could wind up beneath the existing Penn Station as it is shown on the Amtrak website or it could wind up under 31st street or someplace else.

I really seriously doubt there will be any real issues digging under there that would result in the use of eminent domain or such. The landlords/building owners/businesses on that block will benefit from the increased foot traffic once construction is complete.

25Hz wrote:They aren't going to demolish anything. 370 7th is an established 93 year old 17 story building manhattan landmark. They will simply dig under it. Next door is one of the largest public parking structures in the city. You folks seem to think space in manhattan is 4 bucks a square foot with no regard for historic & functional structures.

370 7th Ave. is not a landmarked building. Nothing in that block is landmarked-- not even the church. The only building adjacent to Penn that has a landmark designation is the Post Office-- which actually surprises me as the Hotel Pennsylvania was designed by McKim, Meade & White.

http://maps.nyc.gov/doitt/nycitymap/

I certainly don't think space in Manhattan is anywhere near $4/foot. It's worth much, much more-- so much more that things like parking lots and gas stations are disappearing from most of the island below 96th Street. There is no way you are going to convince me that in the long run, the highest, best and most profitable use for a piece of land across the street from the busiest railroad station in North America is a 7-story parking structure. Someone is going to approach the owner of the structure at some point "and make him an offer he can't refuse"-- assuming, that is, that the structure isn't already owned by a developer who is just biding his time while he assembles a bigger parcel.

I'd be curious to know what is going on behind the scenes regarding Amtrak's negotiations with nearby buildings. People said the Gateway Project would not start for several years--but the tunnel box will begin construction this July...

Cause tunnel box is needed for when LIRR yard is gone be capped and buildings go on top of LIRR yard.
Amtrak has to be doing box or tater on it would be impossible or many times the cost.

Could Amtrak lobby to speed up the engineering process?

for what ? gateway tunnels, no way.

I still think that with all of the development in Hudson Yards that more trans-hudson capacity is urgently needed and must be a priority of several political organizations.

Everyone including you, knows it is needed, you can't rush this however unless you want a boondoggle like Boston had. And main problem is funding.
WE, government federal/state/local are broke, 9/11 effectively neutered this country, besides fear/security/war, we spend it all.