• Union voting update, 2022 contract

  • For topics on Class I and II passenger and freight operations more general in nature and not specifically related to a specific railroad with its own forum.
For topics on Class I and II passenger and freight operations more general in nature and not specifically related to a specific railroad with its own forum.

Moderator: Jeff Smith

  by justalurker66
Red Wing wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:04 pmI have the same control over my time off too it's just broken up into vacation, sick and personal. But that is also how my Union negotiated, instead of bigger paychecks we negotiated time off and the management requested 3 different buckets because that's how they feel they can hold us accountable.
New full time hires get 23 days off a year ... earned a few hours a week starting the first week of employment. One bucket. Employees are responsible for not burning the days they need to reserve for being sick. When they are out of PTO they can still be off work - it just is not paid (unless there is a hardship).

Unless sick pay can be converted to vacation or cashed in at 100% pay I do not want three buckets. If I have earned time to be sick I should be paid those hours whether or not I get sick. Such a scheme leads to people lying about being sick. Rewarding liars is not a good thing.

That being said, I hope the rank and file railroaders can get their unions to negotiate the terms they want. The demands for additional sick days (and the ability to take them) seemed to come up late in the negotiating process. The rank and files seem to need better union representation.
  by farecard
Railjunkie wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:16 am True, nowadays, an Officer leaves the Flight Deck, an Attendant will move up there, presumably to prevent a rerun of the Germanwings incident and likely the Chinese one as well
FWIW: the pre-Germanwings reason was far more straightforward. Nobody want the PIC to have to stand up & go to unlock the cockpit door. Bad Things could easily happen in the time it takes that to happen.
  by Red Wing
eolesen wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:53 pm You never addressed why you think it's a race to the bottom...

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It's a race to the bottom because many places that change to PTO reduce the amount of time you earn and can roll over. I look at what I have for sick time. I have around 1000 hours I get to role over all sick time every year. It's like health insurance. I don't need it now but if I need FMLA or Disability I'll be covered at full rate. When it's PTO most places will let you roll over some of your time but it would never cover what you may need if you're on FMLA .
  by eolesen
Carryover for a sick bank still exists in some PTO implementations. Accounting hates having to accrue for it, though... it's earned at one wage rate and usually paid out at whatever the future salary or wage is years later (almost always higher).

I've seen where an existing sick bank gets frozen but remains available. Future unused time can then be rolled over (aka carryover) into a separate medical-only bank, but yeah, usually limited to 40-48 hours. If STD or LTD is available, sick time is usually capped to whatever the waiting period is or 6 months (which is probably where your 1000 hours came from).

And, if you're under a CBA, that's probably all probably negotiable.

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  by taracer
You don't know what you're talking about.

You are trying to equate regular shift work to what road conductors and engineers deal with.

On the road, you have no idea when you may be going to work, you can sit first out for call for hours and not get called. Until you get tired again, then the phone will ring to go to work. You will have no Idea when you get off work. I've been on duty for 24+ hours several times in my 20 years, and 16 hours is not unusual.

You can't use vacation or personal days to mark off before you get called, or when you get home in these cases, they are slotted and have all kinds of stipulations to use them. These days are earned, not given, we earn them through working a certain amount. You used to be able to mark off just for reasons like this without using the time you earned.

That's what the fight was really about, I'm not even sure how paid time off even got into it, no one was asking for that. We used to be able to mark off, unpaid, anytime without penalty. The nature of the job demanded that.

Now, even with a doctor's note, you get penalized with points. That's what congress just signed off on. Never mind that we were out here working during the height of the covid pandemic. Staying in dirty hotels and sharing dirty cab rides and hot swapping crews.

I'm sure you were sitting at home the whole time, on this board now trying to tell us what's best for everyone.
  by eolesen
Can you explain why the negotiating committees didn't make time off for attendance policies and issue at the bargaining table? Seems odd that only became a problem after the agreement was reached.

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  by taracer
They did but the PEB decided it should be handled locally, which we all know means denied at that level, and the tentative agreement basically went with the PEB recommendations. It then turned into a few days of paid sick leave, and the media ran with that. But that's not what we were asking for. The engineers voted yes by a small margin because we get a few perks the conductors don't.

The conductors saw the writing on the wall and voted no hoping to self-remedy. That option has been taken from them.

We have been trying to negotiate for like three years., but the Class ones were just waiting for this outcome from their bought and paid puppets.

They even got the media to turn it around and blame us, and stooges like you just eat it up, without having any idea of what you are talking about.

And no curiosity to learn.
  by taracer
Here is a sample trip of mine, not using the exact dates.

Called at 3 PM to deadhead in a cab to the hotel, after sitting first out for a few hours at home expecting to get a train around 8 or 9 PM. Deadhead takes about 2.5 hours so off duty in the hotel at 530 PM the same day.

I get to the hotel and now I'm 4th out for call at the away terminal. The last train out runs at 2 AM, but I won't get that because there are 3 crews in front of me, the first out crew will get that train. So now we are in the second day.

First crew on the second day gets a train at 1 PM. I'm now second out. Second crew gets a train at 530 PM. I'm now first out. I get my train at 10 PM the second day. So, I've been sitting in the hotel since 530PM the day before, or 30 hours, and have been reset on the FRA consecutive starts. Yes, the railroads are allowed to reset your FRA starts in the hotel, even though our rulebook says the hotel is company property.

I have a good trip and I'm at my home terminal in under 12 hours, so 930 am. Now I can be called right out to do it again after just 10 hours at home. That is 730 PM call on duty at 930 PM the same day I got home. Just to take a train over and have it be even worse. If something comes up at home, if don't feel good too bad can't mark-off even with a doctor's note.

I know you think you won, but you didn't. These are hands on jobs that can't easily be automated away, tech won't save you.
  by Railjunkie
Back in the day working a New York overnighter and doubling out to Cleveland was bad enough, I just threw up in my mouth reading this. :(
  by eolesen

taracer wrote:We have been trying to negotiate for like three years., but the Class ones were just waiting for this outcome from their bought and paid puppets.

They even got the media to turn it around and blame us, and stooges like you just eat it up, without having any idea of what you are talking about.
First off, why do you think anyone here believes the media? They took the White House's talking points on the PEB and ran with it because there was an election at stake.

And then there wasn't an election to worry about.

Secondly, will the unions call out Biden for his PEB appointees? For the victory lap they took when the PEB conclusions were reached?


They'll blame 43 Senators who chose to ratify the same agreement the PEB reached without modifications.

Letting the politicians in charge direct the outcome and directing the backlash elsewhere does make you stooges, but perhaps not in the way you meant.

Railroad unions should withhold 100% of their political donations to both parties for the next two years.

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  by taracer
No, everyone took the Class One's side including you, I've read your posts here. You are repeating the Class one's propaganda as fed to you through the media, blaming us for a potential crash of the economy. People think prices will go up because of the raise in the agreement, but they never bring up the 21 billion in profit made by the railroads in the 3 quarters of this year.

That is where the raise is coming from, but it wasn't really about that. You fed into the railroads lies that they said themselves. Labor doesn't contribute to profit.

Making labor the bad guy.
  by eolesen
Oh, please. Find me one example where I claimed a strike would cripple the economy or where I sided with management in the dispute.

After 35+ years of dealing with the RLA, I knew there would never be a strike. So that's a red herring on your part.

The only opinions I've expressed here are that average comp of $110K is above average on a national scale, taking things to the brink of a strike wouldn't actually accomplish anything, and the attendance policy on the surface doesn't appear out of line with what I've seen for other transportation industry workers who are also in an on-call/no control over work assignments on short notice situations. I can guarantee you'll never find an example of me calling labor "bricks in a backpack" or playing an inconsequential role of the success or failure of a company.

If that's taking management's side, trust me that it's based on personal views, and not a matter of being hoodwinked by the media or feeding into the railroads propaganda.
  by taracer
The first problem is your average compensation of 110k. That figure is just wrong, way too high and is company propaganda. Your average T&E employee does not make anywhere that much.

If you are trying to include health insurance in that number that is wrong too as our costs are going to skyrocket over the course of this contract. It's already been figured out that the so-called historic raise will just barely cover the cost of health insurance. With no quality-of-life improvements, so nothing gained.

You are repeating the railroads propaganda.
  by taracer
I'd like to apologize for the tone of my posts. It won't happen again.
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