Trackage question

http://www.tmk.com/books/hmdinner/plate18.jpg shows four tracks between the two junctions, while http://nycsubway.org/nyc/path/path-trackmap.html only shows two. Which is correct?

If the four-track drawing were correct there'd be no need for junctions west of Exchange Place and east of Grove St. But there are junctions-- so I vote for two tracks.

Somebody who lives in Pavonia can tell us whether the station there has two levels. A safe bet that it doesn't.

Only ywo tracks were built as shown on the track map. There were plans, and possibly a bit of construction completed, for two separate tunnels from Hudson Terminal to Erie station. This explains the one side platform.
Regarding the double deck casson it is possible it was actually built. When a 33rd Street to Journal Square train takes the left hand turnout after crossing under the river, look very closely and another tube containing electrical equipment can be seen.

It was my understanding that the side platform was to accomodate entire Erie trainloads descending into the station to get to NYC, particularly when the ferries were suspended due to storms/fog. Using just a center platform would have been too crowded. H&M trains from NYC would not result in the same huge surge that several Erie near-simultaneous arrivals would occasion.

Allowing for entire trainloads was certainly the Erie station side platforms ultimate use. In reading some preconstruction reports there were grand plans to have fairly extensive express services.
Supposedly Exchange Place was configured for two additional tracks between the two actually built.

SPUI wrote:http://www.tmk.com/books/hmdinner/plate18.jpg shows four tracks between the two junctions, while http://nycsubway.org/nyc/path/path-trackmap.html only shows two. Which is correct?

Both

There are short pieces of tunnel on both the upper and lower levels, which would have gone directly from that junction to Hudson Terminal (now the WTC). The only pieces that were built (for this route) were those short stubs; pieces where the planned tunnels crossed under Tunnel E downtown; and the bellmouths at Hudson Terminal.

You can see a signal shed in the tunnel mouth. The short piece of tunnel behind the shed is reportedly full of junk, mostly pipe from the ejector pump system on the lower level.

To answer another question in this thread, there was a plan in the mid-20's to convert the H&M system to 4 tracks, but after the Holland Tunnel opened, ridership fell, and then the Great Depression started. I had drawings of the 4-track plans at my Hoboken Historical Museum exhibition a few years ago (they weren't on display - you had to ask me to see them - as we had far more material than space at the show).

Terry
I wasn't aware of the maps when there, do you have other exhibitions planned?
The cross section of the original brick lined tunnel showing a full size steam railroad passenger car was fascinating.

Rich T wrote:I wasn't aware of the maps when there, do you have other exhibitions planned?

None at this time, though as we get closer to the centennials of the various opening ceremonies I'm sure I'll have something.

I came across a "timetable-flyer" for the "HUDSON RIVER TUNNELS" at an antique shop near Ithaca, NY this past Sunday. It is for the H&M with a map showing in red the "present" operation from Hoboken to 9th St. Manhatten and the remainder in black indicating "to be built". It shows all double track operations with no four track operations which may or may not address any of the questions above. Westward track ended at "Summit Ave." and there is no Journal Sq. Where was (is) Summit Ave. and was Jourjal Sq. not in existance then? Paper has no date. Can anyone guess?

Just one station: Summit Avenue was the original name; later it was re-named Journal Square - probably in the very early 1920s.

I believe Journal Square came into being when the area was reconfigured, and the present Kennedy Boulevard (then Hudson Boulevard) concrete arch bridge was constructed in the 1920's. The H&M station was at the same location as today but of course was oriented toward the Public Service terminal to the south.

communipaw wrote:Just one station: Summit Avenue was the original name; later it was re-named Journal Square - probably in the very early 1920s

Kind of confirms my suspicion from printer's code leading me toward 1919.

Thanks.

FWIW, the H&M maps in the 1918 and 1923 Guides are the same, with Summit Ave. In the 1926 Guide the map has been changed to Journal Square.