Comments Deleted
Last edited by mrsadventure on Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Railroad Forums
Choo Choo U
- General discussion about working in the railroad industry. Industry employers are welcome to post openings here.
Moderator: thebigc
[moved to Employment - omv]
----------------------------------------------
Moderator: New York State Railfan :: New York Central :: Toy Trains
NYW&B Fan Site :: A Magazine I Read Often :: A Museum I Volunteer At
Moderator: New York State Railfan :: New York Central :: Toy Trains
NYW&B Fan Site :: A Magazine I Read Often :: A Museum I Volunteer At
mrsadventure wrote: I believe whole heartedly in this process of people having to go to training and even paying for this training. How many well paying jobs out there dont require you to have some type of education?The majority of what one learns is in the field, and many times the school doesn't teach many things......because it's text-book, not real world.
mrsadventure wrote: If you want to be a lawyer, CPA, doctor, etc???I think it gives these individuals a basis for learning and knowing the information before stepping foot on railroad property, which is much better than just throwing them out there on the job to sit with with an old head that sometimes follows the rules and teaches bad habits!A lawyer or doctor is not as likely to get killed by turning away for a second. The old heads do break rules, but many do it constantly and never get hurt whereas the newbies are so brainwashed with rules that they often forget about their surroundings.
The whole school problem is the fact that people have to pay, they shouldn't have to........that's where the complaints come from. Also, although the railroad is still a good paying job, it's not nearly what it used to be years ago in comparison to other jobs especially because many management types are just college graduates with no railroad experience who just know how to crunch numbers and only want to make more profit for themselves.
I agree with CSXcondr, the problem with these schools is that the railroads should be paying for them, or doing the training themselves. NS does it still, you quoted the decline in injuries, and I do not think you can dispute the NS safety record. Having worked for 4 railroads, and gone thru different styles of training, it is good to get the classroom theory training, like how air brakes actually work, and explaining the rule book, but nothing beats actually being out there, seeing things in motion, everything being applied.
I agree with your evaluation of a college degree, for the most part, you are still clueless, its crap, but what can you do, but go broke paying for it because society says its important.
I agree with your evaluation of a college degree, for the most part, you are still clueless, its crap, but what can you do, but go broke paying for it because society says its important.
Comments Deleted
Last edited by mrsadventure on Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
You have some valid points in comparing the schools to college tuition. Most industrial jobs, however, still train new hires themselves. If a person were to hire out at a steel mill or auto assembly plant I'm not aware of schooling they would pay for before beginning work.
However, SOMETHING had to change. In the days of 5 or even 6 man crews, a student could tag along and soak up training at his own pace, and there were still enough guys to get the job done. (I'm not being sexist, when I started there were NO women in train or engine service). Today, a two man crew has all they can do to get the job done and a student will be much more of a distraction than years ago. So maybe a school does make sense.
The big problem, mrsadventure, is what was stated above. There is book learning or classroom learning, but there are countless instincts, methods, and understandings that can only be learned in the field no matter what. To take someone with 4 weeks of classroom and a week or two in the field, and then expect them to be responsible for millions of dollars of equipment and the lives of their fellow employees and the public is asking a lot.
I don't have an easy answer and I don't poo-hoo the schools. What I do have a problem with is the feeling that after going to school a person is ready to be a conductor or whatever. It should be drummed into the students and teachers alike that completing school does not mean you're done. It means PRE-SCHOOL is over, and you are hopefully ready to BEGIN attending school. I have been "attending school" for over 40 years and not a day goes by that I don't learn something new. Changing from one railroad to another might be compared to taking a different subject as you build on what you learned before, but you start learning all over again with different track layouts, grades, power, and fellow employees.
In today's world the schools make a good starting point and the screening you people provide is obviously very helpful. Just don't let anyone think you turn out a finished product.
However, SOMETHING had to change. In the days of 5 or even 6 man crews, a student could tag along and soak up training at his own pace, and there were still enough guys to get the job done. (I'm not being sexist, when I started there were NO women in train or engine service). Today, a two man crew has all they can do to get the job done and a student will be much more of a distraction than years ago. So maybe a school does make sense.
The big problem, mrsadventure, is what was stated above. There is book learning or classroom learning, but there are countless instincts, methods, and understandings that can only be learned in the field no matter what. To take someone with 4 weeks of classroom and a week or two in the field, and then expect them to be responsible for millions of dollars of equipment and the lives of their fellow employees and the public is asking a lot.
I don't have an easy answer and I don't poo-hoo the schools. What I do have a problem with is the feeling that after going to school a person is ready to be a conductor or whatever. It should be drummed into the students and teachers alike that completing school does not mean you're done. It means PRE-SCHOOL is over, and you are hopefully ready to BEGIN attending school. I have been "attending school" for over 40 years and not a day goes by that I don't learn something new. Changing from one railroad to another might be compared to taking a different subject as you build on what you learned before, but you start learning all over again with different track layouts, grades, power, and fellow employees.
In today's world the schools make a good starting point and the screening you people provide is obviously very helpful. Just don't let anyone think you turn out a finished product.
Mrsadventure, have you ever worked in T&E service? If you had, I think you would easily understand that it takes a long time to become proficient as a condr. I am not knocking these schools, I think they are a good introduction into the railroad, I just do not think that the employee should have to pay. If I go to college and get an masters in psychology, and then I go and work in the accounting world for another company, the masters still means something, employers appreciate the further education. If I pay for one of these RR schools, and go into a different industry, it doesn't mean a damn. It is for the railroads only, for there benefit, they trained the new hires before, so why shouldn't they still? That is just my opinion, everyone is entitled to their own.
As for NS, have you ever worked for them? So you are just believing the urban legends? In my experience with them, they seem to get more pissed if you don't report the injury.
As for NS, have you ever worked for them? So you are just believing the urban legends? In my experience with them, they seem to get more pissed if you don't report the injury.
Attrition rates went from 40% to 8%? Then why are we still shorthanded? In my area a shortage of manpower has been going on for 8 years. We've seen new hires who went through the schools quit within a few weeks at a rate of 90%. We've seen new hires who BS'd their way by telling I'm willing to relocate then once they got their foot in the door transfer closer to home. Recently I worked with a conductor who I mistook for a new hire turns out he had two years on the railroad hiding out in the yard which is alright but he didn't do me any good on the road he forgot everything. He told me he'd been on the street twice for run through switches which caused derailments. That didn't make me feel all warm and cozy. They take new hires and force them in to remote training which is only for two weeks.
The UTU who allowed all this to happen by giving up the brakemen went before the FRA this year to request changing the training policies. They wanted to put a brakemen slot back on with a minimun of one year of OJT before someone would be considered for promotion to conductor. The FRA response was "why did it take 14 years before questioning present hiring and training practices". It was denied this time. I hope the UTU is successful we need better training for the new hires within the next decade all of us old heads will be gone.
The UTU who allowed all this to happen by giving up the brakemen went before the FRA this year to request changing the training policies. They wanted to put a brakemen slot back on with a minimun of one year of OJT before someone would be considered for promotion to conductor. The FRA response was "why did it take 14 years before questioning present hiring and training practices". It was denied this time. I hope the UTU is successful we need better training for the new hires within the next decade all of us old heads will be gone.
Comments deleted
Last edited by mrsadventure on Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
" I believe whole heartedly in this process of people having to go to training and even paying for this training. How many well paying jobs out there dont require you to have some type of education? If you want to be a lawyer, CPA, doctor, etc???"
How many lawyer, cpa's, and ordinary degree holding people work on-call 24-7, outside in all conditions, holidays, and are held away from home. We are compensated for our lifestyle not what we have learned through education towards a degree. Obviously you think they should pay or you won't have a job being involved with the program. These guys that come out of the choo choo u are no better prepared then a guy off the street in my opinion. The difference is these guys think they know because they just dished out 10 grand and figure it bought them brains. This is dangerous. And you thinking that they are educated in changing knuckles by themselves. HA. Not that I get any of course.
The biggest thing about these guys paying the 10g for school that gets on my nerves is that 18 of these guys on our railroad are furloughed. I hope they learn about that at the choo choo u because they sure got a crash course here. Don't think that happens to docs,lawyers, cpa's, and such after they paid for their education.
How many lawyer, cpa's, and ordinary degree holding people work on-call 24-7, outside in all conditions, holidays, and are held away from home. We are compensated for our lifestyle not what we have learned through education towards a degree. Obviously you think they should pay or you won't have a job being involved with the program. These guys that come out of the choo choo u are no better prepared then a guy off the street in my opinion. The difference is these guys think they know because they just dished out 10 grand and figure it bought them brains. This is dangerous. And you thinking that they are educated in changing knuckles by themselves. HA. Not that I get any of course.
The biggest thing about these guys paying the 10g for school that gets on my nerves is that 18 of these guys on our railroad are furloughed. I hope they learn about that at the choo choo u because they sure got a crash course here. Don't think that happens to docs,lawyers, cpa's, and such after they paid for their education.
Msadventure I'm glad you don't think of your "graduates" as finished products. Attitude varies and no doubt some of them do think of themselves as finished product. 12-16 weeks in the field is better than what I thought they got and actually less than the training they used to give new guys. The difference is that decades ago when a guy was no longer OFFICIALLY a student, he joined 4 other guys who helped him along. Now when they take off the training wheels, the new guy is the conductor and is expected to handle whatever is thrown at him.
Like I said there is no easy answer. We will never go back to the days of 5 man crews. In todays world railroad school probably makes sense. If done properly, which it sounds like you are trying to do, it will be a help. As for who pays for it - I guess that comes down to who wants the results. If guys are all eager to get in, they'll pay for it. When the company finds itself really short of help, they'll cover the cost to get people.
The whole "school" idea still seems foreign to me but what other options are there today - especially when the conductor you put the new guy with for field training may be an old timer with two years on the railroad. I give you credit for asking for input - that's more than you'll ever hear the companies themselves doing.
Like I said there is no easy answer. We will never go back to the days of 5 man crews. In todays world railroad school probably makes sense. If done properly, which it sounds like you are trying to do, it will be a help. As for who pays for it - I guess that comes down to who wants the results. If guys are all eager to get in, they'll pay for it. When the company finds itself really short of help, they'll cover the cost to get people.
The whole "school" idea still seems foreign to me but what other options are there today - especially when the conductor you put the new guy with for field training may be an old timer with two years on the railroad. I give you credit for asking for input - that's more than you'll ever hear the companies themselves doing.
Comments Deleted
Last edited by mrsadventure on Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
I guess a bit of frustration comes from the fact that the carrier is always trying to cut cost and I see this as just another way. Carriers want to have the new hire pay for it themselves instead of providing the proper training like they had. That is the way I see it just a form of cost cutting. Training costs money as you can relate to.Their is a reason why class 1's are making record quarterly profits. One-man train crews is just a matter of time. I don't think the choo choo u are any more prepared the first day they step on the property then the guys who previously were hired and trained for 2 weeks by the company when they provided their own class. My opinion of course. It's good you enjoy what you do and I am sure you are good at it, but I just don't think they should have to pay for it, nor is it any better, and it should be provided by the company. I have worked with plenty of guys from both systems of training. Not trying to be Mr. Negative, but I am sure others that have been around awhile would agree.
The Unions are a whole different issue and agree with everything you mentioned.
The Unions are a whole different issue and agree with everything you mentioned.