The decline of sleeper trains

west point wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:13 pm Until Amtrak gets a daily availability of its full number of sleepers we have no idea how much more demand there will be for sleeper cars. That does not even take into account addition route and new rout additions.

No, I do not think sleeper travel will ever return to previous time around WW=2

Amtrak will never have the full availability of any car type, sleepers included. There will always be some in refurbishment projects and corrected repairs from wrecks. For the single level fleet with maximum one nighters, it is easy to allocate cars every night or every other night. But on two and three nighter trains, that some Superliners see, it is far more difficult to allocate cars over two to six nights.
Takew the Texas Eagle leaving Chicago going all the way to Los Angeles. It's a minimum of six nights once the cars are allocated on the Eagle before two of the cars return. The part of the train turning around in San Antonio, it's a minimum of four nights before the cars return to Chicago. Allocations made to the train in Chicago sets the allocations of the cars on the return trip four days hence.
That's the major problem with sleeper trains, how far and how long the trains take to make a round trip makes it diffiuclt to have the proper number of cars on the train for each leg.

Interesting that this thread has focused so intently on business travel when it remains below pre-zoom rates. Simultaneously, NightJet service in Europe (which is mostly climate sensitive leisure travelers AFAIK) is flourishing. If American’s ever develop the climate awareness of European travelers (where air travel is starting to be viewed in the same context as smoking) the demand for single-night sleeper service east of the Mississippi (less than 12 hours end to end) would certainly emerge here if the trains were available and marketed effectively. Given the success of Brightline, a service partially dependent on European tourists, it seems like there is some opportunity to copy and paste the NightJet model here. The greater schedule slack provided by overnight service might (?) make the more palatable to the Class 1s. I am under the impression that NightJet cabins are priced much more cheaply than most Amtrak roomettes in order to appeal to the tourist market.

I don't think the railroads will be as accepting of this as you think it will. On many lines, the majority of freight run overnight, and it's enough of an uncompensated taking to make room for what's already operating.

Here's a recent video of the new Innsbruck to Hamburg sleeper train by Nightjet.
No food, no drinks, no socializing space on the train, and the individual bunk bed arrangement leaves little to no room for luggage. Sorry, the more I see of it the less I like it. And I do not think most Americans will disagree with me. Roomettes as a sleeper service is as small most Americans will accept. We also need some space for socializing on a 50 hour plus train ride. I can not see anyone finding it acceptable to be crammed into a "pod" for 24 hours, much less 50 hours or more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucQ0RZrggNk&t=1404s

electricron wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 1:10 pm Here's a recent video of the new Innsbruck to Hamburg sleeper train by Nightjet.
No food, no drinks, no socializing space on the train, and the individual bunk bed arrangement leaves little to no room for luggage. Sorry, the more I see of it the less I like it. And I do not think most Americans will disagree with me. Roomettes as a sleeper service is as small most Americans will accept. We also need some space for socializing on a 50 hour plus train ride. I can not see anyone finding it acceptable to be crammed into a "pod" for 24 hours, much less 50 hours or more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucQ0RZrggNk&t=1404s

Hold up there. Superliner, you can ether check in your luggage or put it in a rack "downstairs". Viewliner, you gotta check it in no matter what. The only room you have is a small duffle bag and a backpack ether way, and with two people, it's a tight stretch.

I see OBB NightJet's berths no different in the luggage department, except that you're bringing one in with you and locking up the other in the closets next to the berth. The only problem is that you won't be really sitting all that well to work on a laptop or anything with a physical keyboard.

I also see OBB NightJet's setup as similar to sleepers on Japan Railways -- no diner, bring some ekiben boxes with you on your trip....

...which, to be honest, I wish some big vendors started selling them in the US.

The pod sleeper concept will only work on an 8-12 hour journey. This won't work on the Cardinal, LSL, or AutoTrain, which are really the only viable overnight sleeper services in the network.

eolesen wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:54 pm The pod sleeper concept will only work on an 8-12 hour journey. This won't work on the Cardinal, LSL, or AutoTrain, which are really the only viable overnight sleeper services in the network.

Why are the Cardinal and LSL viable services in ways that, say , the City of New Orleans, Texas Eagle, and Capitol Limited (each of which had less losses than the LSL in FY23)?

Viable is in the context of these stacked coffin pods.

Nobody's going to ride in a pod for a 12+ hour ride CONO or Eagle without somewhere to escape to or complementary anesthesia.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:35 pm Hold up there. Superliner, you can ether check in your luggage or put it in a rack "downstairs". Viewliner, you gotta check it in no matter what. The only room you have is a small duffle bag and a backpack ether way, and with two people, it's a tight stretch.

I see OBB NightJet's berths no different in the luggage department, except that you're bringing one in with you and locking up the other in the closets next to the berth. The only problem is that you won't be really sitting all that well to work on a laptop or anything with a physical keyboard.

I also see OBB NightJet's setup as similar to sleepers on Japan Railways -- no diner, bring some ekiben boxes with you on your trip....

...which, to be honest, I wish some big vendors started selling them in the US.

Viewliners and Superliners have spaces for baggage in closets, shelves, and room under the seats. Additionally, if traveling along, the space above the top bunk. There's is no second bunk with a pod, no shelves, no closets, and no room under the bunks. A locker barely large enough for one bag does not compare as a similar amount of space.

Not only in the USA, but in Canada as well, sleeper train rides can last as long as three nights on a train. Sorry, lying down on a bed for three nights and four days would cause bed sores on long distance, cross continent trips.

I've been in those Viewliners and Superliners. You are not going to bring a full-sized 30"x14"x12" piece of luggage into a roomette and fit it anywhere along with your companion on the overnight trip on that Viewliner, especially in winter with your coat, their coat, and two backpacks full of tech and overnight necessities. When I say luggage, I'm saying a tech backpack and a small duffle bag with a change of clothes, max.

Which, if you're doing an 8-10 hour overnight trip in a Nightjet pod berth, would be fine. Any longer, I will agree, is not worth it.

electricron wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:53 pm Not only in the USA, but in Canada as well, sleeper train rides can last as long as three nights on a train. Sorry, lying down on a bed for three nights and four days would cause bed sores on long distance, cross continent trips.

No one here has suggested using the Night Jet model on anything longer than a single overnight.

I think there would be a market for that, especially if you could deliver reliable travel times on single-night overnight trips just like I think there is a market for no-frills business class flights (think Spirit level service, but you get a lay flat seat.)

SNCF has 2 bed options as well and they offer the option to buy out the second bed at a reduced price if you are a solo traveler.

They could easily put a lounge car on the end, and put in some vending machines or something. There's a generation that has grown up on economy air travel and is used to eating before they fly or when they arrive.

gprimr1 wrote:I think there would be a market for that, especially if you could deliver reliable travel times on single-night overnight trips just like I think there is a market for no-frills business class flights (think Spirit level service, but you get a lay flat seat.)

Literally, every airline who tried business class only flights has failed.

There's a generation that has grown up on economy air travel and is used to eating before they fly or when they arrive.

There are now three generations that have grown up on air travel and are used to arriving within 2 to 6 hours of when they left home.... that's the nut you need to crack first. Get there quick. Rail is the opposite of that, and always will be simply because of speed and distance.

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The Isle of Man Steam Packet Company recently introduced a brand new ferry between Heysham and Douglas. The Manxman takes around 4 hours to travel between these two cities. Riding as a walk on passenger, the fee is around 20 pounds, and you can ride in a basic chair. If you require a lounge chair, pay an extra 10 pounds which also gets a better view. There are also two private-exclusive lounges available, with the same lounge chair and free food and drinks you can get for each individual crossing for another additional 10 pounds, and the executive club lounge with lay flat seats and fod and drinks for additional 600 pounds yearly. And yes, they also will sell you very small ferry sized cabins with bunk beds for even more pounds. The point I am pointing out is the the lay flat seats costs nearly as much as a cabin, for one passenger and yearly charges. In reality, they are the most expensive seats on the ferry. Whoa, I forgot the per foot price for your vehicle if you are bringing it.
Do you think Amtrak would treat and charge lay flat seats differently than a ferry?

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:57 am There are now three generations that have grown up on air travel and are used to arriving within 2 to 6 hours of when they left home.... that's the nut you need to crack first. Get there quick. Rail is the opposite of that, and always will be simply because of speed and distance.

This nut has been cracked in Europe and is half-cracked here thanks to a growing awareness of GHG emissions from flying, particularly held by Gen Z. Regardless of how you feel about climate science, NightJet has shown us that this market (for 8-10 hour, overnight rail trips in lieu of cheap flights) is substantial and growing.