Switch Targets and FRA

Are switch targets considered fixed signals by the FRA? We have a terminal manager who once e-tested a crew by taking off and reversing the switch target so that it would appear the switch was lined for their movement when it really wasn't. (It was a yard switch, not mainline)

The crew passed the test and from what I understand, once word got around what happened, someone reported him to the FRA and the feds informed him that switch targets are considered fixed signals not to be tampered with.

Does anyone know how accurate that is?

Thanks

I would have to agree that it is a fixed signal. The manager that performed this test should be disciplined for his ineptitude.

Per the CPR U.S. (GCOR) Rules Examiner... switch targets are fixed signals.

A manager tampering (reversing) with a switch target, main track or otherwise, is outrageous. Was his "objective" to see if the crew was checking the points?

Managers are allowed certain acts when performing e-testing; however "reversing" a switch target so it doesn't correspond to the switch points' normal/reverse position is beyond the intent of "testing"...

That "manager" should be reported to the "proper authority" and every effort made to facilitate his remowal from a supervisory position...IMHO

FRA signal rule 236.4 applies to tampering with a signal device. The penalty is $5000 or $7500 if willful.

Sec. 236.4 Interference with normal functioning of device.

The normal functioning of any device shall not be interfered with in

testing or otherwise without first taking measures to provide for safety

of train operation which depends on normal functioning of such device.

After reading the rule as provided by Clearblock I doubt you would have much luck nailing the supervisor. He could say he insured the track itself WAS lined as intended and any related locks, derails, or whatever, were in the proper position. It's going a bit too far in my opinion but if he took "measures to provide for safety of train operation" he probably did not violate FRA regs.

LOL.... they can mess with fixed signals. If they can shunt the rail and then hood the light.... Tampering with a fixed signal, thats the stuff we cant do. There allowed to when testing. Your supposed to move around the yard at restricted speed right? so whats the big deal? Kinda sounds like the same thing i learned in brakeman's school, manager throws a switch against you then hangs his coat over the target.

One thing you learn after awhile on the railroad, look at the switch points first, then look at the target to see if it corresponds.

Rules aside, we are never to use targets to identify switch positions. We are required to look at the points for proper movement. Many switches do not have targets and many targets are improperly "aimed."
If I ran through a switch based on a false target indication, management
would not want to hear any of it!

Maybe on other roads, using switch targets to identify switch positions
is permissable.

Switch targets should never be trusted. They are easily bent, twisted, broken off, and many times are improperly installed in the first place.

Based on the description of the incident at hand and GCOR's definitions, I believe this "supervisor" ran afoul of the rules and intent of "testing"... nowadays (Emergency Order 24) I'm surprised a manager would even consider tampering with a switch target...

If the FRA did in fact "caution" this manager against further nonsense, then it appears they can't turn targets 90 degrees out in the name of "testing"... although a missing/absent target would be a fair game...


Fixed Signal

A signal that is fixed to a location permanently and that indicates a condition affecting train movement.


Signal Aspect

The appearance of a fixed or cab signal.


Signal Indication

The action required by the signal aspect.


Position of Switches

The employee handling the switch or derail is responsible for the position of the switch or derail in use.

Employees handling switches and derails must make sure:

The points fit properly and the target, if so equippped, corresponds with the switch's position.

When posssible, crew members on the engine must see that the switches and derails near the engine are properly lined.

I never use a target as my visual clue that all is well and lined. Sure I'll look down the lead or main line and see if a target is showing the correct path, but I always look at my switch points just to be sure.

UPRR engineer wrote:LOL.... they can mess with fixed signals. If they can shunt the rail and then hood the light.... Tampering with a fixed signal, thats the stuff we cant do. There allowed to when testing. Your supposed to move around the yard at restricted speed right? so whats the big deal? Kinda sounds like the same thing i learned in brakeman's school, manager throws a switch against you then hangs his coat over the target.

One thing you learn after awhile on the railroad, look at the switch points first, then look at the target to see if it corresponds.

While this is legal on Federal terms, let some switchmen witness it, and it becomes a labor issue. Last time that was tried in Des Moines, the manager was informed not to perform such a test again and yard switchman was paid his claim under their (CNW-UTU) agreement.

SooLineRob wrote:Per the CPR U.S. (GCOR) Rules Examiner... switch targets are fixed signals.

A manager tampering (reversing) with a switch target, main track or otherwise, is outrageous. Was his "objective" to see if the crew was checking the points?

Managers are allowed certain acts when performing e-testing; however "reversing" a switch target so it doesn't correspond to the switch points' normal/reverse position is beyond the intent of "testing"...

That "manager" should be reported to the "proper authority" and every effort made to facilitate his remowal from a supervisory position...IMHO

As noted by others, the Company (all railroads today) don't want us relying on switch targets.

To me this is corporate cost-cutting going NUTS. The whole IDEA of a switch target is to save the crew the time/effort of going over and physically inspecting the lineup.

Switch targets get damaged or vandalized, and the carriers don't want to spend money or time maintaining them. So...they stress, don't use/rely on the switch target.

This has gotten out of hand, though. In Collinwood, six years ago, the Terminal Superintendent decided he would enforce it..by removing switch targets.

The Union Safety Committe chair wasted no time getting the FRA on the property.

Oh-kayyy...

So the Superintendent ordered up a gross of switch targets that were red on all sides!! They told the crews NOTHING!! Because it was put into the timetable, it was perfectly legal.

Talk about spending a dollar to save a penny...but this is the mindset of the modern railroad. Anything that slows DOWN a move is good and to be worked toward. Because, with Trip Rates and whatnot, our time is WORTHLESS.

**Falling off lounge chair in hysterical laughter**

Sorry, but this ''stunt'' sounds like something our own beloved TM's would try and pull off. Heh, heh!!

Unless one is operating on a more restrictive authority and since this occured in the yard it is a bogus test! Period.

''Other than Main Track'' clearly states (among other things) that a crew must keep a lookout for an improperly lined switch or derail. It says nothing about ''switch targets''.
In our yard alone we have several targets that are either broken, mounted incorrectly or are missing the ''target''.

How do we check switches? By switch points of course.

Sounds to me that this clown is implying that all one needs to do at 6.28 is check the targets and not the switch points itself.

Don't ya just love this new breed of yuppy management??? Gone are the days of verbal hazing by ''the old man'' and the issue is done.

My .02 $

conrail_engineer wrote:

SooLineRob wrote:Per the CPR U.S. (GCOR) Rules Examiner... switch targets are fixed signals.

A manager tampering (reversing) with a switch target, main track or otherwise, is outrageous. Was his "objective" to see if the crew was checking the points?

Managers are allowed certain acts when performing e-testing; however "reversing" a switch target so it doesn't correspond to the switch points' normal/reverse position is beyond the intent of "testing"...

That "manager" should be reported to the "proper authority" and every effort made to facilitate his remowal from a supervisory position...IMHO

As noted by others, the Company (all railroads today) don't want us relying on switch targets.

To me this is corporate cost-cutting going NUTS. The whole IDEA of a switch target is to save the crew the time/effort of going over and physically inspecting the lineup.

Switch targets get damaged or vandalized, and the carriers don't want to spend money or time maintaining them. So...they stress, don't use/rely on the switch target.

This has gotten out of hand, though. In Collinwood, six years ago, the Terminal Superintendent decided he would enforce it..by removing switch targets.

The Union Safety Committe chair wasted no time getting the FRA on the property.

Oh-kayyy...

So the Superintendent ordered up a gross of switch targets that were red on all sides!! They told the crews NOTHING!! Because it was put into the timetable, it was perfectly legal.

Talk about spending a dollar to save a penny...but this is the mindset of the modern railroad. Anything that slows DOWN a move is good and to be worked toward. Because, with Trip Rates and whatnot, our time is WORTHLESS.

Very well said indeed!!!

DrawbarFlats wrote:
Sounds to me that this clown is implying...

Mr. DrawbarFlats... I'm not sure if I'm the "clown" or my managers are, but please continue reading...

Gentlemen,

Please don't "read into" my posts that I personally encourage crews to rely on targets.

My posts were in response to the original question, as written, at face value. If the FRA reprimanded the manager for testing Restricted Speed by turning a target 90 degrees out of correspondence, then the manager was wrong according the the FRA.

I was not trying to "promote" a target vs points debate; I offered up the information I had pertaining to the discussion at hand.

The CPR (U.S.) Rules Examiner has made this determination, no doubt to add a charge into the investigation/hearing letter in the event a crew runs through a switch. In addition to violating 6.27 and 6.28, crews will will be handed an additional violation of "failing to comply with a fixed signal".

So, at least the CPR guys know where they stand; a target is a fixed signal. And... all the baggage that goes with it. If the carrier says it's a signal, then they have to keep them in good working order and can be relied upon by crews to indicate their route is lined... the proverbial "sword" cuts both ways. While I'm not aware of a specific incident regarding CPR targets/run through switches, the seed has been planted for a Local Chairman's defense of a member...

I apologize for any confusion I may have caused regarding this issue.

Be safe out there and remember...Restricted Speed (half the range of vision) gives you the right to operate accordingly...