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  • Steamers that look good, Restoration?

  • Discussion of steam locomotives from all manufacturers and railroads
Discussion of steam locomotives from all manufacturers and railroads

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 #177461  by Engineer James
 
Well, i have found that somehow we have an excess steamer population here in michigan. Look at this...

C&NW #175> Sittling at an abandoned plant.. Very good canidate for restoration!! Needs a New cab though.

http://www.railroadmichigan.com/steamripley.jpg

Huron Milling Co. > Extreme good canididate!!

http://www.railroadmichigan.com/steamharborbeach.jpg

Sweet Line RR #1> Another canididate for restoration!!

http://www.railroadmichigan.com/sweet03.jpg

DTE #203> Very good 0-6-0 Canididate!!

http://www.railroadmichigan.com/de203.jpg

Unknown RR> Good canididate! Pic taken a few months ago!!

http://www.railroadmichigan.com/de203.jpg

We need to get one big restoration team together! I am need of some help behind the idea though... I can't do it myself, not to mention I am only 16 and it would look kind of wierd, anyway anybody for ideas??

:-D :-D :-D

 #177528  by Mike Walsh
 
http://www.railroadmichigan.com/sweet03.jpg


This is a fireless heisler, so you need a source to produce steam. It stores steam, and from that point on, i'm not quite sure how it operates. Basically you don't need a fire. So all you really need to do is work on the valve gear and such.

These locomotives do not look like they are in good condition. They are all rusted out, and the one that you mentioned that needs a new cab probably needs a new boiler ALTOGETHER, since the boiler is already rusted, and would not hold up to much pressure.

You need to look at MANY things:
What do you need for OPERATIONS? (insurance, crew, certification, etc)
What do you need to RESTORE? (sponsors? steel/iron/etc)
Where will you do it? (warehouse? museum shed?)


Any restoration of a steam locomotive is probably well over the 50 mil mark, and that mark will definitely exceed that number as the locomotive is kept running (annual inspections, running costs (fuel, pilot crew time (railroads dont allow steamers to run without a pilot crew that knows the line))

I am 19, and fire 12 inch gauge live steam. I have spent a lot of time with those locomotives, and even keeping 12 inch live steam locomotives in operable condition is no simple task. We run on a set schedule: every sunday (11am - 4pm or whenever the last train leaves the station), may through october - rain or shine. We haul an average of 500-600 passengers per sunday, and usually break records in october when the scenery is at its' best (we recently set a new record: 1094 paying passengers -- children under 3 years are free; that number does not include the number of children under 3 years of age, which probably exceeded 1500-1600 total). My association has 4 operational steam locomtovies, with various projects under restoration (several other steamers) and three operational diesels. We have 1.5 miles of track, and are working on a .75 mile extension.

Www.wfprr.com

It's fun, but not easy work. However, the work that you put into it is well worth the blood, sweat, and tears - as you are keeping the tradition alive, and that is enough for me. I am not trying to show off my skills or such, im just keeping the tradition alive. I am fortunate enough to have had a friend who graduated the same year as me (who just happened to attend a rival school of my school), and he took a position at the Nevada Northern RY in Ely, Nevada; as a full time steam locomotive fireman, and is currently a student engineer and is working on getting his steam engineer certification (FRA).

Mike

 #187479  by O-6-O
 
When you say "a good candidate for restoration" do you mean an operating one? Just because and engine has some appeal does not
make it a good candidate. Just looking at the outside of it doesn't tell
you anything about the mechanical or structural integrity of the boiler or
the running gear. Experts in the field of steam loco restoration do exsist
and their services should be had as step one in any restoration effort.
Do lots of reading and research on the subject before you spend dime
one. The cost alone has scared off more than one budding resto project.
Good luck.

/--OOO--~-oo--oo-

 #187560  by Engineer James
 
I mean, if some one would take the time..... and energy. These could be running again in no time. However, as insanerocketkid said there iss fuel, maintence and other things.

 #187722  by Mike Walsh
 
If you count the time period between going off to college, getting a master's degree, getting married, having a child or two, and then getting this locomotive running again -- "No time", then go ahead, spend that amount of time doing so.

Think about it. A steamer cannot be restored in ONE Year, unless it was worked on 365 days a year, and that is providing that the amount of work that needs to be done can be done in that time frame.

Look at Union Pacific's 844. It took them roughly 3 or 4 years to repair their boiler - which consisted of removing EACH flue from the boiler, and then replacing them with new and improved ones - and this all started with the rupture of a single flue. Small incidents cause major repair. In the case of a rusted out steam engine - you are looking at sandblasting every single part, taking everything to a machine shop to make sure everything is in good shape and does not need to be replaced (Trust me - you'll need to replace a large number of bolts).

I dont mean to rain on your parade, but I do know that restoration work takes a LOT of time, energy, and money. I voulnteer for a 12 inch gauge steam railroad - and we sank a lot of money in a new boiler ($8k), repair work, and parts, just to get it moving again. For a 12 inch gauge locomotive, that's not bad - but multiply it by a number close to infinity when you are talking about a full size locomotive, because you've also got to include the costs for bringing outside labor in (certified boiler welders), also you need to have a FRA inspector come in and inspect your boiler, and if he rejects it, you probably need a lot more work.
 #254916  by superfeed
 
Well, you negative poopooers...

Yes, restoring steam engines is very expensive. That is, for most of us. As it is the steam engine pictured without the cab and boiler jacketing is owned by a a friend of my father, and is one of several locomotives (steam and diesel) that he owns. As a matter of fact, that engine is not in bad shape overall. Listening to you guys responding to an optomistic 16 year old makes me sick. I have not owned a steam locomotive, but I did own a 50 year old diesel that is still running. :wink: There are many people that can afford to support the restoration of full scale steam locomotives. Most of the horror stories regarding restorations that I am aware of have to do with incompetent restorers wasting owner's money. This applies to the engine recently moved from Traverse City, as well as engines in highly respected rail museums such as the Ventura County #2 at the Orange Empire Museum in Riverside California. Find a sponsor with lots of money, and have a great restoration facility do the work. And most of all, THINK POSITIVE!

 #254933  by trainman786
 
insanerocketkid wrote:Look at Union Pacific's 844. It took them roughly 3 or 4 years to repair their boiler - which consisted of removing EACH flue from the boiler, and then replacing them with new and improved ones - and this all started with the rupture of a single flue. Small incidents cause major repair. In the case of a rusted out steam engine - you are looking at sandblasting every single part, taking everything to a machine shop to make sure everything is in good shape and does not need to be replaced (Trust me - you'll need to replace a large number of bolts).

I dont mean to rain on your parade, but I do know that restoration work takes a LOT of time, energy, and money. I voulnteer for a 12 inch gauge steam railroad - and we sank a lot of money in a new boiler ($8k), repair work, and parts, just to get it moving again. For a 12 inch gauge locomotive, that's not bad - but multiply it by a number close to infinity when you are talking about a full size locomotive, because you've also got to include the costs for bringing outside labor in (certified boiler welders), also you need to have a FRA inspector come in and inspect your boiler, and if he rejects it, you probably need a lot more work.
The Austin Steam Train Association's restoration of Southern Pacific's MK-5 Mikado #786 has taken (so far) about 7 years and nearly a half million dollars. Originally in August of 1997 she was sidelined to replace a bearing in a left-side pilot wheel. When the pilot axle was removed, a crack was discovered in the cylinder saddle on the fireman's side. Since this is a LARGE (approximately 10-ton) casting and not something readily available at Locomotives 'R Us, ASTA spent the better part of 2 years finding a foundry who could cast a new one to their specs. By this time, it was time for an FRA inspection and they determined that boiler work and a complete re-tube job was needed.

Restorations can be very expensive and time-consuming indeed...

For the complete story, check out www.austinsteamtrain.org

Jim

 #254996  by Aji-tater
 
It's amazing that so many people miss the one thing needed more than all - a good sense of reality. Engineer James is to be commended on his enthusiasm and opitimism but he has NO idea of reality "These things can be running again in no time". Such statements are a tip-off that one is not well-versed in what is involved.

Superfeed says "find a sponsor with lots of money and have a great restoration facility do the work". Again, great wishes, but in REALITY how many people do any of us know walking around with half a million or more, wondering what to plunk it down on? And what is a "great restoration facility" anyway?

There are a great many steam locos which have been restored to operation. 1225, 759, 8444, pick any one you can think of. I defy you to name ONE that was done "in no time" - every article you read, in TRAINS or whatever, ALWAYS details months - no, usually YEARS of time, effort and money. Even the guy above running 12' gauge says it's a lot of work - multiply that by a large factor if you're dealing with the real thing.

I would really love to see all of those engines running. REALITY tells me probably not one of them ever will.

 #255397  by 2spot
 
I tend to agree with you Aji-tater, that Engineer James is to be commended on his enthusiasm. But he is 16. Everything seems quick and easy at that age.
 #255663  by TRR12
 
Aji-tater
Hit the target dead center. Have been involved in pickling, operating and restorations of six different from 18 inch to narrow and standard guage engines. Most folks have that gleam in thier eye like a love sick teenager about running steam. Very few have the reality attached. Everything is hot, heavy and dirty. To find someone to give you thier nickle to play with is not only difficult, but nearly impossible today. The folks that have any expeirience at all are getting very far and few between. Don't want to discourage anyone but please be realistic. Thanks :wink:
 #256146  by Cosmo
 
Verry few realistic, experienced railroaders or restorers will ever tell you "No time at all" these days, mostly because time=$$ and many of the remaining people experienced with steam operation amd restoration work are volunteers well past retirement age. I know, I worked with a whole bunch of them up in WIscassett this spring.
They have a locomotive, WW&F #9, that while small, has taken over nine years for it's restoration to begin mostly due to the boiler needing a complete replacement. Those 8+ years since I first set eyes on that engine were spent raising $$ for the boiler and repairing or replacing whatever else could be fixed in preparation for the new boiler's delivery.
That boiler, while small compared to most of the pictures that Engineerjames posted will cost nearly (IIRC) $10,000.
Meanwhile, the RR itself keeps a much smaler loco, WW&F # 10, as well as a Diesel and 2 or 3 gas powered "critters" in operation, as well as thier freight and passenger equipment.
This is all verry impressive, mind you and there is no shortage of help at "apple pickin' time," BUT it must be realized that this operation has many dedicated volunteers who are willing to donate thier time, and many members and contributers, as well as a management staff to make sure the time and $$, so precious to dso many, is properly expended and necessary items are not neglected.
That is a lotof people doing a lot of work with a LOT of dedication tand support.
But that is just how tremendous an undertaking a restoration group such as WW&F is. That's what it takes, even for a smallish, 2' guage forney not much bigger than the average (small) dumptruck.
I guess my final point is that this did not come about overnight.
James, if you want to dedicate yourself to such an undertaking, go for it! Just be warned that it takes SERIOUS work to accomplish these things and it's not ALL fun and games. Granted, it is a lot of fun, but there's some really SERIOUS work involved.
Good luck, and don't give up!
Cosmo
 #288986  by pjb
 
:-)
Overlooked in the proceeding remarks is that the central issue
is not finding dollars or facilities capable of restoring steam
locomotives! Dollars and knowhow are both uncommon , but
the central issue has been finding places to let you run your
restored or new steam locomotive.
The best bet is that you get ahold of some run down piece of
track and with a large group of fellow enthusiasts maintain
the physical plant and find and restore a small industrial
tank locomotive or mainline old 0-6-0 (or smaller) to
power it.

Unfortunately, this does not have broad appeal as most fans:
have visions of northerns/mountains, or at least pacifics,
dancing in their heads as they haul the varnish with some elan.
Selectively, another smaller band sees vintage freight trains
as the besought Grail.

The last issue is holding the focus of the group and keeping
it together, when differences arise. If you think that is easy
for instance, then you don't know anything about the history
of railfan run railroads.
You say what! Who ever gave railfans a railroad to run?
Well the citizens of Warren County gave the local chapter
of the NRHS a real common carrier railroad (that still had
a few customers at the time, as well as agreements from
some nonusers to use the operation if it was manned).
The fans filled up the property with scores of free freight
and passenger cars (from the DoD courtesy of local
Congressman's intercession). This made them probably the
best equipped tourist excursion operator in the country,
if they chose to do this. They didn't have steamers,
but they had some side rod equipped, operating, center cab
DE switchers, that could have moved along the cars.

However, someone had to switch those freight cars, clear
the RoW, and also make sure the track stayed upright and
the like. It turned out the directors wanted to control and
direct , and the pool of actual folks that wanted to go
out after a tropical storm to clean ditches and shore up
whatever needed it dwindled. In a year or two no one
was around to sally forth in the Carolina sunshine to
do any sweating. Guys would ride speeders, and occassionally
throw a switch as long as they could run the locos
but soon the WARRENTON belonged to the ages. The
class one took out the connection and lots of old cars and
a few locos corrode in the tall grass, because an
'ingroup' discouraged expanding the membership and
otherwise sharing in making a unique opportunity i
n the worldof railfanning a reality.

Not many fans are given a shot at railroading, and the
PRAIRIE DOG CENTRAL is an excellent example that
shows a large scale operation incorporating volunteers
with paid employees can be made to work. It
requires organizational skills and people that are not
there merely for a quick sensory fixof the sites and
sounds of steam .

Even if the organization is focussed exclusively on a
locomotive, the matter of finding trackage to run it on
has become an overwhelming problem. It is not all
about insurance, although some rates are exclusionary
for excursion operations. The carriers simply do not want
your locos on their lines. They find the crowds brought
near trackside, and the interferance with operations
a burden. Obviously, some run their own programs
but most do not, and those that do are frying other
fish than getting good general press.
We have a great number of locomotives that are
first class mainline haulers with virtually no place to
go. We have 4-8-4s from ATSF,SP&S,Milwaukee Rd,
SLSW, SP, and a few needing minor work from
GTW,RDG, CN, C&O and probably other ATSF (there
were two other Long John 4-8-4s being rebuilt as of
two years ago). This doesn't touch the odd 2-8-4,
4-8-2 and Pacific around in operating condition.

Some of these are fairly tragic for reasons related to
some of the prior comments. The Reading 4-8-4 was
bought by a rich Canadian gentleman that proceeded
to spend over a ¼million to rebuild the boiler and
superheater (the whole works; new tubes and flues,
welded patches where needed, new stays, hydo testing
-the works) but he couldn't get CP or CN to let it
out for excursion train service. It was on a small tourist
/museum operation that had a little steamer, but this
was not the place to send a 'T-1' forth to do it's
stuff. All attempts to shake the guys with the mainlines
from their negative positions failed.

So he threw in the towel. In order to at least
see it move around the musum tracks, he butchered
the grates and stuck a residential oil burner gun in the
fire box.
This was a travesty, but by the same token
rebuilding the arch and doing all the oil burner and
appliances work for another wad of his dough...
also would have indicated he had lost his marbles.

There are many other examples of poor decision
making by groups , and individuals concerning
the restoration and operation of steam locos, but
unless some way can be found to overcome the
matter of where to haul passenger excursions that
replicate the past as it was... then focussing upon
small locos running on museum type physical
plants is the only realistic approach.

Good-Luck, Peter Boylan

 #290166  by Engineer James
 
Well, however. there is a movie that would give the novice steam loco restorer that I own. "How to Operate and Fire a Steam Locomotive" and it was made at the Monticello Railroad Museum, Now the Illinois Railroad Museum, using their 0-4-0 #1. It shows how to replace flues, tires, check the air system, etc....

Very good video.