Station Improvements

In the current SEPTA transit system, discluding busses, what stations would you like to see closed, opened, realigned, or rebuilt with transfers to a nearby different station (ex: Tabor and BSS Fern Rock)? Of existing stations, what practical improvements would you like to see done? Please disclude lines not in current operation.

I'd love to see them do something about Wayne Junction. That place is in desperate need of a renovation, and looks like it's always on the verge of falling apart. It's a shame, too, because if you look at the building itself, you can tell that there was once a rather beautiful station there.

Wayne Junction was something else back in the 40's & '50's. If you ever have a chance, get off there...make it planned of course so you're not there too long, but there are some intersting relics from the past there. If you take the stairway down to switch platforms, there is still writing on the walls that direct you to the correct platform for trains to---> New York, Reading, Bethlehem, Newtown and Reading Terminal.

I guess SEPTA never bothered to remove it.

Are there plans to make the inbound platform high level too?

Almost forgot to list my "wish list"

Frankford Juntion--> This should be a must station. Major junction for trains to NYP, Atlantic City, WAS, HAR and CC, and should be served by all 3 carriers. Amtrak once made stops here until the early '90's.

Station is also served by SEPTA route 5 from Frankford Terminal. I live close enough that it would save lots of time going to NY/AC without having to go through CC. If SEPTA had their act together, they could come up with a plan to slightly move the station closer to Kensignton Ave to make it walkable from the MFL. If Amtrak was willing to share, perhaps some land could be made available for parking. The neighborhood may be shaky, but if you're not driving a Lexus, chances are your car will be there at the end of the day, although security wise, the station may be better off at its current location. If you need to catch the MFL, take the 5 first.

Also, 52nd Street Station should come back regardless of weather or not the SVM is built. If the Ivy Ridge trains were increased a bit and spaced apart from the Thorndale trains, people might actually use it if they knew a train went by every 20 minutes or so. If enough people got on the Ivy Ridge locals, it might actually make running them worthwhile....I know, a pipe dream....

The R5 and P&W stations at Radnor should be combined. The lines cross and the stations are almost within sight of each other, but the only access between them involves about a 1/4 mile walk or drive.

In all fairness this isn't completely SEPTA's fault. There are land-ownership questions, plus a lot of opposition from the locals. There was actually a plan to combine the stations maybe 15 or 20 years ago, but the NIMBYs managed to shoot it down.

Well first, some recommendations for my home line, the R8 Fox Chase:

1. SEPTA should elminate the grade crossing at Oxford Av., in between Ryers and Fox Chase stations; I've been cought up there in my car, and not only does traffic back up to a dangerous point, because none of the traffic lights on Oxford in that area are syncronized with it, but the skewed-angle set up appears as a big hazard.

2. SEPTA should either shut down and combine or do a huge renovation to both Ryers (my daily station) and Cheltenham stations. A simple combinging for these stations would be possible by simply building a station in between Cottman Av. (where Ryers is now) and the current Cheltenham station at Martins Mills Rd.

3. Instead of proposing to single-track the line south of Cheltenham, SEPTA should instead concentrate on double tracking the line north of Cheltenham, because the single tracked operation is a huge pain during rush hours.

Now for the rest of the system:

1. SEPTA should run a couple more limited or express trains on most longer regional rail lines; escpecially those shared with Amtrak (ex. R7 Trenton, R2 Wilmington, R5 Thorndale; R5 Lansdale/Doylestown, etc.).

2. SEPTA should be fair to Cynwyd riders and
a.) give them through service to AT LEAST Temple University, so that they can have access to Market East and Temple.
b.) schedule an extra mid-day "train" or 2
c.) schedule some trains on weekends

3. Close down the Eddington station, and some other flag stops; they just slow down operations and nobody ever boards at those stations

4. Allow free transfers between regional rail and the MFL and BSS, and between the MFL and BSS to the regional rail in Center City only. (See #6 below)

5. Allow free transfers between the MFL, BSS, and light rail lines to busses, similar to how it works in NYC.

6. Adopt a new fare control system for regional rail lines, the MFL, and BSS. You should be able to purchase some kind of a pre-paid or unlimited card (like MetroCard in NYC or CTA Card in Chicago) and use it at all subway/el stations. TVM's should be installed at most regional rail stations, because even though the "on board penalty fee" for not having a ticket is normally not enforced, it scares people. Turnstiles should be installed at all Center City regional rail stations (Temple University, Market East, Suburban, 30th St., University City, N. Philadelphia, etc.) so that instead of having conductors rushing to collect money or clip tickets between the last zone and Center City, passengers can simply swipe in/swipe out at center city stations as they please. This would also enable free transfers between subway/el lines and regional rail lines at downtown stations. This would also help to eliminate fare beaters in the Center City Regional Rail Zone, who travel for free from Temple to University City, ultamitaly losing SEPTA money.

SEPTA should run a couple more limited or express trains on most longer regional rail lines; escpecially those shared with Amtrak

IIRC there are already some expresses on the Trenton segment of the R7.

matt1168 wrote:TVM's should be installed at most regional rail stations

About 2 decades ago SEPTA did have TVM's in most stations, but in standard fashion was incapable of maintaining them. They were eventually removed from outlying stations because so many had become non-functional. Also in standard SEPTA fashion, the machines were not upgradable, so when the new currency designs came out even the functioning machines were useless unless you were carrying out-of-date bills or a pile of coins.

...because even though the "on board penalty fee" for not having a ticket is normally not enforced, it scares people.

As stated in the RRD schedules the on-board penalty applies only at stations where the ticket office is open or there is a functioning TVM. Today there are TVMs basically only the CC stations and the airport. From what I have seen it is generally enforced at the CC stations. However AFAIK the penalty is often waived at the airport because you have too many people who are unfamiliar with the system and may not even have the requisite U.S. currency if coming from overseas.

Part of the reason the penalty was dropped at outlying stations was the number of disputes over what constituted a "functioning" TVM. Does the term mean "Completely out of service"? "Working but only taking 1985-vintage $20s"? In my R5/R6 days I saw a number of cases that almost escalated to trading punches when an overzealous conductor disagreed with a passenger over a TVM's availability. In any case, while I support the idea of getting cash off vehicles, IMO it was ludicrously petty and vindictive to penalize passengers for SEPTA's own inability to provide adequate information and to keep its TVMs in good order. Whatever extra bucks they made from the penalty was far outweighed by the number of people they p#$$ed off, some to the point of not riding again.

eliminate fare beaters in the Center City Regional Rail Zone, who travel for free from Temple to University City, ultimately (ultamitaly) losing SEPTA money.

Perhaps if SEPTA had a more rational fare than the "$3.50 special" for a 1- or 2-stop ride, there would be less incentive for people to try to evade it. But yes, I agree, there needs to be a complete overhaul of the fare system as we've discussed in some other threads.

jfrey40535 wrote:Are there plans to make the inbound platform high level too?

Yes.

Most R2 trains mostly don't stop at Crestmont, do they? if not, SEPTA should eliminate it. Any suggestions?

Why is everyone here so obsessed with station elimination? Fewer stations = fewer riders = less revenue. Bear in mind, skipping a station saves only 1 minute. We need active discussion in this region on how to add stations that people can get to. So much has been closed already, and so often that SEPTA gave up printing route maps...I was on the 130 bus the other day and the GPS system still announces Andalusia Station for the R7. That's been gone for years!

The save money mentality must go! We need to start thinking about how to get money into the box and humans into the seats.

Crestmont is not a heavy station by design. There is limited parking. The people who do use it walk there. We need more stations like this, in a neighborhood that is within walking distance. What I would do to have a train station that I could walk to.....

I'm sure it will get eliminated as SEPTA has raised the bar on minimum daily boardings from 50 to 75.

The two Radnor stations are less than 2000 feet from one another. You can see the R5's tracks from the P&W station. You could move the P&W platform 500 feet north and extend the R5 platforms 1500 feet east. There aren't any neighboring homes since the Blue Route (I-476) obliterated everything in the area. It's just an office park and a couple of schools surrounding these two stations.

I'm thinking that this area could be redeveloped into a more pedestrian-friendly transit village. I don't know what Radnor township was like 15 years ago, but today, it is much more open to transit-friendly developments.

The one major station improvement I'd like SEPTA to do is basic upkeep. Simple things like PAINTING the walls and general maintenance to keep the stations from looking so abandoned.

Why is everyone here so obsessed with station elimination? Fewer stations = fewer riders = less revenue. Bear in mind, skipping a station saves only 1 minute

The logic is flawed. Keep running the trains like buses, and you'll get fewer riders. Faster trains, less stops, higher average speed = more riders = longer trains = more revenue. You'll be saving a lot more than a single minute by "skipping" certain stations. Slow trains don't sell—something that SEPTA RRD hasn't figured out yet. (Works for NJT, LIRR, Metro-North though...even works for NYC subway, with their express tracks and all...)

Irish Chieftain wrote:

Why is everyone here so obsessed with station elimination? Fewer stations = fewer riders = less revenue. Bear in mind, skipping a station saves only 1 minute

The logic is flawed. Keep running the trains like buses, and you'll get fewer riders. Faster trains, less stops, higher average speed = more riders = longer trains = more revenue. You'll be saving a lot more than a single minute by "skipping" certain stations. Slow trains don't sell?something that SEPTA RRD hasn't figured out yet. (Works for NJT, LIRR, Metro-North though...even works for NYC subway, with their express tracks and all...)

Not so fast there. Sure 100% express trains would be nice for the people out at the terminuses, assuming all ridership comes from the endpoint of a trip. However it should be obvious that you MUST make intermediate stops if you wish your operation to be a success. As with all things related to transit, you face a trade-off, travel time versus accessability. It should be relatively easy to set it up as a system of equations. As Travel Time increases, Ridership decreases, and as Accessability increases, ridership increases as well. I'm not sure of the exact numbers here, you could likely pay any number of engineering firms a few hundred thousand dollars to determine it, but I'd be willing to bet that increasing Travel Time has a sharper effect on decreasing ridership than an increase in Accessability would have in bolstering it. I'd imagine cars are to blame for this, 60-70 years ago every town needed it's little station because people walked to the train to the city every morning, now SEPTA caters to the car and is expanding their parking facilities.

In my experience a perfect example is Ft Washington and Ambler stations on the R5 Lansdale line. I have no doubt that the Ft Washington station dates back to the Reading days, the building looks ancient, but it seems it was largely ignored until the 1970s when suburbs and office parks began cropping up around the PA TPK interchange just south of it. At that time it appears that the first parking lot was carved out of a wooded (or abandoned) lot to the North (or east) of the station. Now with growth in the area pretty much at it's peak, and with more office complexes going in, SEPTA has chosen to expand the parking once more, this time adding some 300 spots (IIRC), high platforms, and a tunnel under the tracks (already built after the 2001 washout of the R5 just south of there). I'd be willing to bet that Ambler station was always the more important of the two stations until recently, when it finds itself playing second fiddle to an increasingly car-friendly Ft Washington station. I hate to see a station at the middle of a town be bypassed by transit, but it seems like that's what SEPTA might be aiming for, drop Ambler to please riders from further out, and tell the people who used to have a station in town to drive further to Ft Washington and park.

Eliminating Stations merely to drop a minute or less off the timetable is one hell of a poor way to run a railroad, especially one such as SEPTA runs, which seems to favor accessability over travel times, thereby allowing them to get away with tiny parking lots at most stations.

Not so fast there. Sure 100% express trains would be nice for the people out at the terminuses, assuming all ridership comes from the endpoint of a trip. However it should be obvious that you MUST make intermediate stops if you wish your operation to be a success

I was not advocating 100 percent express. Read it again. You tell me what's better, stopping in every "muncipality" (sometimes twice in one municipality) and killing a competitive average speed, or stopping in the higher-ridership stations and giving passengers something they want to use. Something like the R5 RDG service is good (Lansdale/Doylestown), but the R7 Trenton when contrasted with NJT's NEC service is rather lacking.