State-wide signal malfunction hotline needed?

Assemblyman Ryan Karben, D-Monsey, thinks there ought to be a statewide 800 number to encourage people to report safety problems at railroad crossings.

To that end, the second term state legislator is vowing to introduce legislation soon that would require the state's Department of Transportation to create a toll-free line in New York similar to one that the Federal Railroad Administration is working on with Texas, Pennsylvania and Kentucky.

"A statewide toll-free emergency notification system would allow New Yorkers to play a critical role in improving safety at railroad crossings throughout the state," Karben stated in a press release.

[snip]

http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/ ... nrail.html

A couple of points about this:

1) CSX, NS and Metro North already have signs posted at crossings for people to report emergencies. (I have CSX & NS in my wallet and HAVE reported problems.)

2) A number can be posted, but you still need someone to call in an emergency. An auto carrier got stuck on a crossing in Mt Kisco, the driver called a tow truck, who called 911, who were on the phone with MN when a train came along and hit the truck! If the moron driver had called the RR FIRST, a lot of people would have been spared a lot of hassle. (Also, same moron had driven onto the Saw Mill Parkway, despite the "Passenger Cars ONLY" signs. Guess he can't read...)

Signs are only as effective as the people that read them.

Conversely, I've called in signal malfunctions to CSX in the past... you ever try to explain to a dispatcher in Jacksonville, Florida, the location of a malfunction on the West Shore Branch (even after reading him the milepost data on the sign)? Perhaps a state-wide number wouldn't be a bad thing- but that would again put another step of interference between you and the railroad you're trying to report to.

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:Conversely, I've called in signal malfunctions to CSX in the past... you ever try to explain to a dispatcher in Jacksonville, Florida, the location of a malfunction on the West Shore Branch (even after reading him the milepost data on the sign)?

Ditto that Otto! A hot line is only as good as the person who answers the calls.

Here’s an experience I had several years ago:

Came upon the lights flashing but the gate arms held vertical at the R&S Brook Rd crossing in Chili. There was no train in sight. I dutifully wrote down the 800 emergency number on the sticker on the instrument case, then called to report the malfunction when I got to a phone.

The 800 number got me an unpleasant person in Punxatawny PA who repeatedly told me the crossing belonged to Conrail - that the R&S had no crossings in Monroe County! After several minutes of exasperating conversation (like why would Conrail post an R&S emergency number on a CR instrument case) I finally convinced the guy to look it up in his database. After several more minutes he admitted that the crossing WAS one of theirs and that he would put in a call to the local maintainer to fix it.

Followup: Returning home on Brook Rd again several hours later I observed the signals were still flashing and the gates still up (and of course no train...) Also noticed the west side gate arm appeared a couple degrees short of vertical. So on a lark I stopped and gave the gate counterweight a shove. It moved a fraction of an inch and the lights went out.

Maybe I shoulda sent the G&W a bill??

...FB

...in reflective paint! Light up each crossing with flood lights and strobes! Blame the engineer. Blame the conductor. Blame the railroad. But don't ever blame the pedestrian driver. And certainly, painting and lighting should take the place of driver education and law enforcement. One law should be that any idiot who runs into the side of a train or tries to beat a train at a crossing or has his ears to the sound system, cell phone, computer or tv, should automatically waive his right to sue anybody! Seriously, the need to emphasize automobile, bus, and truck vehicle drivers (and passengers) is the most important factor in combating grade crossing safety.

Pedestrian driver? Combat grade crossing safety? And anyone else think this post didn't belong here?

Dave Becker

Otto Vondrak wrote:Signs are only as effective as the people that read them.

Conversely, I've called in signal malfunctions to CSX in the past... you ever try to explain to a dispatcher in Jacksonville, Florida, the location of a malfunction on the West Shore Branch (even after reading him the milepost data on the sign)? Perhaps a state-wide number wouldn't be a bad thing- but that would again put another step of interference between you and the railroad you're trying to report to.

-otto-

I had the same problem with a crossing on the Corning Secondary Sept 2nd of 03 (my birthday so i remember) It was one of the few spots on this line where you can see for several miles either way and it was perfectly clear that there was no train near by but the gates were down.

After hunting around the area for a pay phone I got thru to the NS emergency number gave them the numbers on the gate and they wantted to know my name, which I wasn't confortable giving them at all as I could see no reason they'd need it! I told them that I wasn't from the area and calling from a payphone and they were happy with the explination but still why on earth would they want my name?

Only reward i'd want is prefered stock and they arn't about to give that away

...you are probably right. I was trying to reply another post at another place also concerning grade corssings...the one about new reflective tapes and paints to be put on engines and cars because drivers can't see the train, its lights, the crsoss bucks, the gates, the crossing flashers, the trainman on the crossing, the train on the crossing, etc. Yes there have been and there are problems addressed by this thread concerning crossings. But also, what I said about driver education and intellegence should apply just as much: STOP, LOOK, and LISTEN whether the lights are flashing and the gates are down or not!

I apologize for any discomfort or inconvenience I put you through. I should have started my own topic.

I, too, have had less than satisfactory response from the RRs posted numbers for reporting grade crossing malfunctions.

Case in point: Conrail, Fonda court house, circa 1997. Now there's a crossing where you want the signals to WORK dependably. High speed track, tight curve with lots of vegetation, crappy visibility in both directions. I called to report the gates were down. Couldn't get through at first, eventually somebody answered, and told me that the problem had already been reported. And FIXED, too!

That quick response would have impressed me greatly, except for the fact that it was a bold faced lie. I was calling from a cell phone in the grocery store parking lot, less than 50 feet away, and I could see the gates were still down, just as they had been for twenty minutes since I got there.

I had to take the phone over to the crossing in order to convince this person that I knew what I was talking about. Once he could hear the bells going off, I guess that helped.

Resolution? Not much of one--the next train through triggered the gates and they rose up when the train passed. Then they came down again a few minutes later, stayed down for maybe a minute or two, and went back up.

I stayed trackside for another hour or so (it's a cool railfanning location). The gates never went down again, but the maintainer never showed up either.

I doubt this situation has improved any since then, and I support the notion of making this a law enforcement function instead of a self-regulating thing that the RR is supposed to take care of. Why do I support this, when I'm generally a less-government type? becasue its been clearly shown (both UP and CSX have been caught with their pants down within the last year, blaming INNOCENT motorists for fatalities that the RR caused) that the industry simply will not take this issue seriously.

Another item: with everybody's call centers moving to India, how long before you wind up talking to somebody who doesn't even know where New York is? At least state governments aren't likely to outsource that kind of work.

I think this idea would be actually hazardous to the public safety. As was pointed out above, it would put another organization with its own agenda between the caller and the railroad that can respond to the problem.

LAL, B&H, and WNYP have posted an 800 number on our crossings and contracted with a very competent service to take the calls and notify the appropriate railroad personnel. On smaller railroads such as ours, it is almost always true that the personnel who receive these messages will know where the crossing is, even if the alert message service did not obtain clear information from the caller.

And, by the way, the lack of clear information from the caller is the main problem. People are usually nervous and agitated when they call, and often it interferes with their ability to communicate where they are (they use an older name for the road than the one that is currently used, or fail to see the sticker on the crossing mast), exactly what happened, etc., etc. All too many people--even people who think of themselves as nice, reasonable people--can't resist an opportunity to act out their frustrations on a big, impersonal thing like a railroad. Or they have another sort of personal agenda seeking its very own Jerry Springer moment. We've heard it all--and it's always the fault of the railroad somehow.

Then there are the motorists who lie about what happened. We see that a lot. One motorist was convicted for it, and paid restitution to the railroad for breaking the crossing gate. When you're trying to remember what happened in a moment of panic, it takes a very ethical person to avoid reconstructing the events in a way that serves themself.

Our web site includes the text of state law as it applies to motorists at grade crossings. I guarantee you, it's not what most people, and the media, think it is.

Substituting a state-run service with statewide responsibilities will make it less likely that the people taking the calls are familiar with the territory. The assumptions behind this plan represent a classic example of the hubris that one sees from people who live in a world of paper, computers, databases, and information management, and who do not have to get out and live and work in the real world. Before the WNYP opened I personally checked every grade crossing to see that the road name that was provided to the alert service was the same as the one on the sign at the nearest intersection. If we had relied on the track charts we would have had many, many errors.

We already receive calls from 9-1-1 agencies because some motorists call them instead of the 800 number on the mast. Mostly, the 9-1-1 people are professional and experienced. We had one instance, however, which is representative of several others: The 9-1-1 dispatcher reported that OUR gates had failed to come down ahead of the train and impatiently insisted that we send a maintainer out to inspect it even though our trainmaster informed her that we did not operate a train that day. Also, we routinely get calls from 9-1-1 centers alleging that the gates fail to come down at crossings where there is no approach circuit and standing instructions require the train to stop to trigger the gates. It's always a railroad problem (rather than a motorist error) and they expect us to make it go away, even if it never existed in the first place.

We can inspect more of this kind of unreasoning, the railroad-is-always-wrong treatment if a single, state-run center is established. The only difference will be that the dispatchers will be even less familiar with the territory. Are they going to send them out for annual familiarization with their territory? Or will their knowledge be limited to what they see on the computer screen in front of them?

WDB

__________________

William D. Burt
President and Chief Operating Officer
Livonia, Avon & Lakeville Railroad
B&H Rail Corp.
Western New York & Pennsylvania Railroad
Ontario Central Railroad

I my self get to know the signal maintaince guys in my area. I know them by first and last name. Even thow I no longer work for the Railroad I keep my peace. I share what I know even odd ball people and licence plate numbers discriptions of people and the questions they may ask me are all reported.

When fileing a report with the railroad I give the mile post, nearest road, town, city, village ect. County, and State. I even tell them where I am as well. I do on occation stay till the maintaince guy shows up to share anything else that I may have seen as well. I have never had any trouble with CSX in geting anyone up to fix something.

I can see valid points to both sides of the arguments.

Of course the big question is who's gonna pay for it?

Here in Rochester they tied this to the fatal car vs train where the old couple was killed. However, the train crew knew about it but didn't stop, so the hotline would have been useless in that scenario.

This past tuesday(1/4) evening a 71 year old woman made a wrong turn onto the West Shore from Monroe Ave., Pittsford, NY. The lady promptly called the tow truck but neither her, the tow truck operator, nor what had to have been dozens of passing motorist bother to call any number, not even 911 to report a car stuck on the tracks. (this location is less than 6 miles from the fatal Henrietta crossing incident of 2/'04 and just 100 yards west of the site of a double fatal trespasser incident several years ago on the Railroads canal bridge, and 6 miles west of the recent double fatality in Fairport just 2 weeks ago, you'd think someone would have called) A passing Police Officer notice the activity, stopped and had 911 call the railroad. However, before the info, could reach the train dispatcher an e bd multilevel came through and disposed of the car, which lodged under the second multilevel car. TV and news media hastened to the scene, but upon finding that there was no fatality, and the fault lay with the woman promptly pack their cameras and reporters and left. I never saw any TV or paper reports of the incident. EDUCATE, the public in general, Law enforcement agencies, about crossings, how and why they work the way they do, what to do when you see something amiss along any RR tracks. Police and courts need to strickly enforce laws and penalties for tresspassing and passing the lights and gates,(same penalty as passing a stoplight, NYS law) I would propose, instead of an 800 number which generally goes ignored, and too many numbers to try to quickly dial, a state wide 3 digit number posted in very large print to a NYS dsp center like maybe the thurway authority or some such 24hr manned agency. which then in turn contacts the RR. Currently each crossing has a specific ID number posted on the mast along with the RR's contact 800 number. Bottom line is, as long as there is the human factor involved, there will always be problems with reporting. Maybe they could install emergency phone boxes at all crossings which when picked up the phone automatically rings an operator and displays the call boxes location to the operator just like the enhanced 911 systems.
Where will it all end?

Where are they going to post this 800 notification number, next to the 800 number posted by the RRs at all their crossings???
In the course of my business, I spend considerable time at or near RR crossings, and have never had a problem reporting an incident to the RR police or dispatcher. Just be sure you have the road crossings name, state, town, etc. For the rail buff reporting a problem, the approximate mile post number, route ( Southern Tier, Buffalo Line, CSX Rochester sub, etc.) type of device malfunction, etc. will aid them in getting the problem solved quickly. I have had them ask for a "call back number" or my name, but I respectfully decline, stating I am just a passer by doing my civic duty.......

I do the same thing to erie valley I have never had any problums with geting a repairmen up to odd ball locations to fix crossing gates.

I don't know if a state wide or country wide hot line would work it would take a lot of cooperation between the state(s) invalved in this and we all know how each of them work with the railroads. The railroads sure are not going to pay to keep such a thing going. The police are not going to pay for it and the state or states would see us as the luckey suckers to foot the money for the bill to pay for it lock stock and barral. I think one of the problums is that all of the calls being made to the railroad go to one central location and then being dispatched to anouther. this would be my solution:

When you call the railroad one phone number with someone even a computer that would ask you What State and city? tell it oh Little Falls, New York computer transfers the call to a real person to some one with in that location then explane the problum.

I don't know about anyone else but when you call CSX the number gos to Jacksonville, Florida and they don't under stand are accent and I don't speek what ever in the hell it is they speek you have to repeat things several times. It should be 2 phone numbers one for the southern states i.e. CSX and one for the northern states anything former Conrail property this would be more ideal for people when talking to someone who we can understand and vice versa when asking questions insted of repetating things several times over and over again to someone who has no clue of the location of anything in the north.


The best one I can rember when chatting to someone in Florida reporting the crossing gates not working right in Weedsport, NY.

There reply:
Weeeedsport? Weedsport huh where is that? is this a joke? thats a funny name. where is it? what kind of name is that?